Hybrid as an interim step?

sekond

We have one small EV (mine) and one 7 seater diesel beast (husband's). The EV is used for 99% of local trips by both of us, and most longer weekend trips that can be done within its range (which is most of them). Diesel is used for husband's commute, holidays, trips where we need more boot space, or anything beyond the range of the EV.

He's paying a fortune in diesel at the moment for his commute (45km each way, usually 4 days a week), and has the option of free charging at work. Ideally he'd switch to a BEV, and that's probably in the long term plan, but the ones that might fit our uses for the second car (large boot space and/or 7 seats, long range) are either out of our budget or have a very long waiting period.

Would it make sense (especially given the free charging at work), for him to switch to a second hand PHEV for the next few years until there is a broader range of second hand EVs that fit our needs? Something like a Mitsubishi Outlander?

I know the "worst of both worlds" arguments about PHEVs but maybe not so much in this case? I also know that maybe I should drive the diesel on days I'm home and he's in the office and he could take the EV, but I hate driving the diesel and I think I've only driven it once in the 7 years we've had it. But we could alternating taking the PHEV depending on who had the longer trips - and provided it wasn't a massive car I'd probably be happy to drive it.

Redfox25

Maybe as a counter point, the free charging in work wont last forever, with the price of electricity most workplace providers are charging for it now.

(This might no happen for your husbands place of work ofc, just bear it in mind).

Whats the budget you had in mind for this 7 seater EV, which are rare atm.

sekond

Yes, that's always a point about the work charging, but it's a risk we take I suppose. There's no sign of it going in the near future, and we are hoping to get solar ourselves which will help with charging costs too.

The charging was more really about not necessarily needing to do the full return journey on electric, that he could top up at work.

The 7 seats isn't a must-have for an interim car. I know they are very rare in an EV, which is another reason I'm thinking of holding off going full electric for a while in the hopes that there might be more options on on market in a few years time. While we do use them sometimes, it's really about the extra space in the boot when they are folded down.

Budget probably about 20,000, which would include whatever we could get as a trade in for the diesel. But I haven't done the detailed calculations yet.

Redfox25

For that money, it's Nissan leaf or hyunda ionic territory.

Both decent cars BTW and should be considered.

Redfox25

If, including the trade in, you were near 30k, then a base mg4 new would be a good bet.

No idea on leadtime though.

sekond

Yeah, lead time is the issue. In an ideal world we'd go for a new MG5. The estate and the range would work well. But the lead time is very long, and we don't really want to have to put down a deposit now, still be paying for all the diesel and have the trade in value of the old car potentially drop.

Which is why we were trying to figure out if a second hand PHEV might be an option to get us through a couple of years, with the hopes supply issues ease by then.

But it's whether that makes sense or we just hold on to the diesel for another year or so instead.

Casati

Why can't he take your ev for his commute?

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120096708#Comment_120096708

Was going to post the same thing. What's your commute? If small, you could take the diesel. That way he saves a fortune on diesel, can charge at work and you can save towards becoming a 2 EV household once a bigger EV that has enough space and range becomes available.

sekond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120096727#Comment_120096727

Because the EV is my baby and I don't like him fiddling with all the settings :)

Seriously though, it is a good idea, and probably one we will use temporarily at least.

I work from home a fair bit, so just do the school runs, and on the days I'm in the office I just drive to the train station (5km) away. But I find it very hard to drive his car - it has a weird clutch so it stalls a lot for me, and it feels like driving a tractor. it's also huge compared to mine. (I'm driving a corsa e, his is a qashqai+2). I really hate his car (and neither of us want me driving a car I'm not comfortable with).

But yes, that probably is the sensible way to go...

Alkers

Outlander will only manage 30km ish on battery. If work charging stays free it would make a decent dent in the diesel bill, but less so if relying on only home charging or paying for work charging. When running on the ice, they are hard on petrol.

eagerv

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120096858#Comment_120096858

Use the EV as much as possible. We were in the same position when my wife bought a classic Ioniq 28kWh 3 years ago. We ended up rarely using my ICE unless very long runs. OK charging then was free and rarely occupied, even so recently.

I'm sure if you explain to him he won't touch your settings..😁

kanuseeme

Outlander is only 5 seats and does about 7l/100km/ 40 mpg, nice big boot because they removed the 2 extra seats to put in the battery, 30 km is about right, I once did 45 km on a charge, but 33% of the trip was free-wheeling lol.

Here is a car that should do closer to 45 km, and petrol consumption is around 5.5l/100km or 50 mpg when the battery is used, but only 5 seats.

https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/kia-niro-plug-in-hybrid/32810865

I think Kia have a 7 year warranty, not sure on that.

Your husbands commute of 45 km in the outlander, would cost 9 kWh of electricity and 1 litre of petrol, same for the way back for 100km it works out at 120 mpg, Some intervention would increase battery range and reduce fuel usage, by switching over to petrol (literally by pressing a button) when going up a hill for example.

I don't buy the worst of both worlds argument, your present car is probably doing about 40 mpg, and for the price of 9 kWh of nighttime units and 9 daytime units, you are getting 3 x the value in fuel use, not killing polar bears and not driving a tractor, better economics with the Niro.

Del2005

In a few years a PHEV might be harder to shift than a diesel. When there's a decent selection of BEVs then very few people will be looking for PHEVs, there'll be plenty of people still loving diesels.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097028#Comment_120097028

They sound like a bag of rattling spanners, they stink, cost a fortune to run and maintain and then they still go on fire and their exhaust fumes cause climate change, breathing difficulties and cancer.

Yeah there's lots to love about diesels.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097045#Comment_120097045

I never liked diesels in cars and never understood why the EU pushed them as "green" when you looked at what came out of their exhaust apart from a bit less CO2. But there's plenty of people who do love them and will be buying then till they are banned, I don't know many people who love PHEVs and with the increase in choice of BEVs soon they won't be a big seller.

eagerv

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097045#Comment_120097045

As a reasonably regular cyclist/walker in a hilly part of our country, I can now anticipate which cars will make me cough when cycling/walking uphill. Usually pre about 2012 German cars and vans. It's a crazy situation, the owners availing of cheap tax, with DPF probably removed until the next NCT (If they have one😏).

However I did put a modern small diesel in my boat a few years ago, can't believe the difference in not having smoke in the cockpit. Was toying around with going electric, but couldn't at the time get the figures to work..

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097028#Comment_120097028

None of us have a crystal ball.

As more and more people install PV panels they will be looking for EV / PHEV.

Not everybody will be able to afford to buy new so I can see second prices remaning buoyant. It's today's new cars that will be in demand in greater numbers in 3 years.

I'd say PV will skew second hand buyers away from diesel.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120098839#Comment_120098839

It's very satisfying seeing your car being charged up directly from the sun.

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058279215/hybrid-as-an-interim-step

How much will it cost to upgrade from the Diesel to the PHEV or EV? If cost of commuting is the main concern the pay back period for the upgrade might be much longer than you think. Hypothetically speaking, if the upgrade cost is €10k, that would pay for 5,714 litres of diesel @ €1.75/l. With a 90km round trip commute and a consumption of 6l/100km that's 1,058 days of commuting. You've mentioned a 4 day working week so that's over 5 years of communting before you've saved €10k. And that's not including the cost to charge the car which will push that payback period out further. If you've other reasons to swap cars then that's a different thing but if it's just on cost alone then more often than not the most economical thing to do is drive what you have until it falls apart.

unkel

@almostover - there is a lot more to total cost of ownership than the cost of fuel. For instance there is no maintenance on EVs, they have relatively low depreciation, they cost less to tax and less to insure. And you could save considerably on tolls.

And of course there is the environmental factor. More people die in Ireland because of diesel fumes than in road traffic accidents.

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099998#Comment_120099998

Not disagreeing with you at all on any of that. But if the OP's diesel is paid off, then it costs them zero in terms of financing. Their only expenses are fuel, maintenance, tax, insurance etc. Buying an EV will incur an upfront cost of some quantity, most likely financed by credit with an associated interested rate. The OP needs to do an honest financial assessment and figure out how long it will take for a return on their investment. It might make them think twice about what will save them money on their commute.

If their 7 seater diesel is already clapped out and needs replacement then they will be comparing a new diesel vs a new EV. In which case the EV will make much more financial sense.

As I said, if the move to EV is based on cost alone then do the sums and make sure its financially wise. If the OP also wants to limit their tailpipe emissions or just wants a new car then that's different.

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099998#Comment_120099998

What's your source for more people dieing from breathing diesel fumes than in RTAs? If that's the case our predominantly diesel fuelled public transport system is killing people at a rate of 150+ per year. Surely the money given to the RSA should be diverted into replacing all diesel powered transport in this state if that is the case?

unkel

@almostover - "if the OP's diesel is paid off, then it costs them zero in terms of financing."

Loan repayments are not costs. They are not part of the total cost of ownership.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099998#Comment_120099998

Of course there is maintenance - tyres?

The environment factor is a red herring, not many people have the money to buy one but there is environmental problem in some other country instead.

Borrowing to buy an EV seems mad to me. The interest on repayments would buy a lot of diesel.

I'm not sure about low depreciation either. This is still new technology and if we look at the evolution of mobile phones then in 3 years the next generation EV's could have a lot more battery for less money.

It's all a gamble really IMO.

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120100125#Comment_120100125

In what world is servicing credit not considered at cost? At the very least the interest on the lawn is a cost. Plus the principal sum has to come from somewhere.

unkel

Yes the interest on the loan is a cost. But not the repayments. "The principal sum has to come from somewhere" sure. And when the time comes to sell, you know what your depreciation was.

@waterwelly - "Of course there is maintenance - tyres?"

Of course. And you will change brake fluid after a few years and the pollen filter just like any other car. But there is zero maintenance on the drivetrain. Almost zero chance of something going wrong either. That's why pretty much all EVs have an 8 year full warranty on battery and drivetrain.

dingbat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120096858#Comment_120096858

How far is the school and how old are the kids? Wondering if an electric cargo bike would be a short term investment that could do you for those school runs and your 5km to/from the train? This would allow your other half to use the EV for his commute and reduce the diesel consumption substantially, even if it was still used once or twice a week. Could serve as a useful bridge for a couple of years.

We have smallies (both under 8) and our purchase of a cargo bike was an absolute game-changer. We are in a suburban environment, which helps. But it's genuinely our second car serving the school-run, shopping, and commuting a few days a week between us.

sekond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120101059#Comment_120101059

Kids are older - late primary and secondary school. One gets delivered to the train station to do most of their commute (same place I go on my working days), the other is dropped part of the way to school and walks the rest (same on the way back). Unfortunately, the roads near us are not very safe for cycling and the public transport is unreliable. So older child needs to be dropped to where the transport gets better, and younger child gets dropped within safe walking distance of school.

There are rumours of some improvement in the roads and transport links near us, which might make it a bit easier - which might reduce the number of times I have to go out, which might make me more willing to use the diesel.

sekond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120100070#Comment_120100070

All this is really useful - thanks. The diesel is 10 years old, so we probably would have been considering replacing it around now anyway. It's getting to the stage where insurance is beginning to cost more, issues are getting expensive to fix etc. Plus as the result of a location change at work, he's now paying M50 tolls, so it all mounts up.

Some detailed financial calculations need to be made - plus a few test drives I think.

sekond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120096987#Comment_120096987

Thanks - this is really helpful.

PaulJoseph22

To note PHEV’s are not the worst of both worlds for some they are the better option.

They can provide reassurance to one on longer trips and if unable to get to a working charger.

dingbat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120102432#Comment_120102432

The PHEVs are worst of both worlds point is with regard to carbon and efficiency.

When you're in EV mode, you're lugging around a big heavy engine, transmission, lots of other metal, so you're getting far fewer kms for your electricity than you should.

When you're in ICE mode, you're burning more fuel than a non-PHEV car because you are paying to lug around the big heavy PHEV battery.

That's why it's the worst of both worlds.

PaulJoseph22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120102466#Comment_120102466

Do you have one?

my car will plan its journey and is a very efficient vehicle, I can contribute by ensuring I am not doing the above, as in ensuring It’s charged in the right mode et etc etc

If you have a heavy ev with a large battery, you can apply some of your statements to said scenario.

dingbat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120102552#Comment_120102552

You mean your PHEV can plan its journey by extracting the ICE engine, transmission and leave them neatly in your garage while it runs around on electricity?

PaulJoseph22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120102566#Comment_120102566

Can yours run without fossil fuels?

EV’s don’t suit everyone at this present time.

Some businesses rely on ICE and ultimately as a consumer so do you.

Miscreant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120102466#Comment_120102466

This has not been my experience with a PHEV over the past 2 years. I find it to be the best of both worlds...

Most of the time I am driving in EV only mode and charge 2 or 3 times a week. In terms of efficiency, I get between 50 and 60km of range from the battery, so around 14 to 17KWh/100km, which is comparable to a decent EV. On a long run, outside of battery range, the car behaves like a standard HEV and I regularly achieve <4l/100km (or 60mpg in old money measurements). The PHEV battery is never flat and provides power even on the motorway. Previous to this car, I had a Toyota HEV and regularly got 4l/100km out of it on a long journey and better in the city. As for carbon; the car may put out more CO2 than a diesel (when the ICE is running) but there are no NOx emissions or particulates to worry about and I have no DPF to get clogged. An equivalent 1.6l car would put out similar CO2 based on my overall petrol consumption figures. I will caveat this with the fact that the petrol engine in a PHEV is not constantly running so the "average" CO2 emissions are a lot lower. PHEVs work out if you keep them charged regularly.

The extra weight you are "lugging" around in a PHEV is almost cancelled out by the extra battery that a full EV is carrying so there is not that much of a penalty in the real world (in my experience), perhaps the weight of an extra person in the car? I will, however, concede that a PHEV will be heavier than the equivalent ICE vehicle but as the EV part of the system is offering assistance constantly, you do not lose too much efficiency.

If a PHEV is suitable to your driving pattern then I would go for it. If diesel is suitable, then go for that... same with HEV, BEV, Petrol, Hydrogen, LPG and so on. Each individual knows their own driving habit and the journeys they do so should be able to get an idea of what would suit them. A PHEV works for me as I have mainly shorter journeys within battery range and have the opportunity to charge at work for a reduced cost. I also have the comfort of knowing that if I need to drive a long distance round trip with minimal disruption, I can do so simply by filling up with petrol and carrying on.

As for the OP; a hybrid is a perfectly reasonable interim step to take, from my experience. I had a petrol guzzling 2l car prior to buying my hybrid and have never looked back. The hybrid was quiet, clean and comfortable and when the time came to change, I went for a PHEV as I did not feel that a full EV was right for me at the time. Diesel was also out, due to my regular short journeys. Like I said above, look at all the options and choose the one you feel is best for you. I would never discourage anyone from buying a particular method of propulsion if it was something that suited them and their usage patterns.

dingbat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120102630#Comment_120102630

I'm not arguing that point. I was simply explaining what the "worst of both worlds" bit actually refers to.

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120102320#Comment_120102320

That's a different situation, if the car needs replacing for other reasons then do your sums on replacement options. Petrol hybrid, PHEV or EV. Forget about getting another diesel anyway. Best of luck

kanuseeme

There is always one in nearly every thread spouting some rubbish on phevs.

Hauling the extra weight around is a popular theme, I like to point out per kWh they are the same weight, where as a phev has 10 or more any decent BEV has 70 + that probably does the normal average 20 km daily and nothing is thought of hauling that around.

Efficiency, my prius phev returned 15 kWh /100 km, my 330e the garage deleted my info, but in the cold weather it was 19 kWh, in summer 16 kWh.

I think the problem stems from peoples experience of arriving at a charger to find a phev plugged in, when I bought my phev I was not expecting to find a charger available when I wanted it,

I am glad when I can charge, when I want to, not when I need to eat or when I need the toilet,

Another thing some have a grip with is the battery range, they are improving some of the new ones are doing 80 km and more, even an old one with 30 km range can return some high mpg on trips exceeding that 30 km.

For example, my 330e, put 50 euro into it 7th December, I have done 1000km since then, including to the airport and back 320 km, still have 1/8 of a tank left, I put 19.5 kWh into from esb chargers since January 1st, no queuing, no diverting, no stopping because I need a charge, just normal use, shopping, errands etc.

The car is giving me for that 50 euro/1000km 95 mpg , 3 l/100km, and 13 kWh/100 km its low because of the petrol use.

dingbat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120103184#Comment_120103184

And the price of that convenience is burning more oil. That's it.

Your use of the car is great. Bravo. But we need to get off oil.

Miscreant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120103730#Comment_120103730

And that is a discussion for another thread.

I think the OP has been answered at this stage so we can all leave it there.

/thread

kanuseeme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120103730#Comment_120103730

Sure, I would tell anyone to expect to burn fuel, but some here would rather you buy or keep an ice than buy a phev, for most people their daily needs are 20 or 30 km the range of 99% of the phevs, like my last 5 weeks 70% of my needs were done with little to no fuel use while the 30% was the convenient burning of fuel.

Trying to get people to go from 100% to 0% is next to impossible without spending millions upon millions on charging infrastructure, even then first reports of queues would turn people off BEV's, its the main reason I did not buy a BEV, the 2nd reason would be the time wasted on my longer journeys, 3rd would be range versus price. A longer range BEV would need a inconvenient loan, a shorter range cheaper BEV would require inconvenient charging for what to save 300 or 500 euro a year.

I have one car in the house and the foreseeable future it will be a phev, I would like a longer range phev like the 14 kWh outlander or the rav4,

A phev requires nothing only to charge it, when and where its available, but the idiotic things said here about phevs is beyond belief, a common one was to charge at home, LMFAO, as if the phev knows its at home or not.

If you want oil gone, you could start by promoting phevs rather than rubbishing them. The less fossil fuel used could allow for increasing the % of renewables in the fuel, my mothers phev has a sticker stating up to 25% ethanol.

PaulJoseph22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120103730#Comment_120103730

And the convenience of owning a BEV?

What is powering 50 percent or more of the electricity…

Why has electricity got so expensive? Just like the oil has that’s used to power it.

dingbat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120104728#Comment_120104728

:facepalm:

dingbat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120104099#Comment_120104099

There is a keen argument for keeping an ICE running, saving the carbon cost of a new machine, and waiting to go BEV rather than taking the PHEV middle step.

PaulJoseph22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120104782#Comment_120104782

:facepalm:

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120103730#Comment_120103730

This EV and the environment again.

An EV is still derived from fossil fuels. If it breaks down it's an ICE tow truck you need.

It's partially powered by fossil fuels, something like 80% of energy globally is derived from fossil fuels.

Yes in the long, long term, everything electric powered by renewables is where the plant needs to be. But that's decades away.

Deriding somebody for driving a partly petrol powered PHEV over a partly coal powered BEV is nonsense.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120104793#Comment_120104793

Or keep the ICE going even longer and not buy a new machine at all.

This is a futile argument, PHEV's will suit a lot of people.

I know somebody who had to sell his BEV because he drove a lot the odd day and couldn't keep it charged.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120102676#Comment_120102676

Great post.

Melted

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120104912#Comment_120104912

Nobody is denying this.

I think the point is do we need more mobile oil burning engines around?

Your other statements are ridiculous so broad that they are bordering on strawman levels misdirection.

how much coal do we use in Ireland to produce electricity?

who is going around saying we need to be 100% electric?

sekond

Thought I'd update on this…

We decided originally that we would just hold on to the diesel for a bit longer, knowing that we were likely to have a bit more money in the budget towards the end of this year to make a decision on what might be available. And then over the summer, just before a trip from Dublin to Cork (as in, we were all packed and in the car), the diesel died. Leaking oil everywhere. Had to do a swift change to the electric.

Husband got real world experience of an electric on a long journey (was pretty painless, and charging stops coincided with coffee time nicely) while we had a think about what to do about the diesel. We did a few strategic stops at dealerships on the way home.

Long story short - he now owns a nice new EV6. Charging at work, loving the range. The boot space is fine, and we've figured if we every needed much bigger we could just hire a van. We also realised that the need for the 7 seater had pretty much disappeared.

Added bonus, he isn't using my car anymore, so my settings are being left the way I like them AND my charging cost are going down, because he doesn't borrow my car for all the local driving.