Should Irish be made optional at schools.

That's because your point is nonsense!

I can honestly say that 13 years of learning Irish didn't help me a damn with English, French or German grammar.

Your post sounds like a politician dodging a question. The fact is the state forces teenagers to study Irish for the LC, the state has decided they know better than Parents when it comes to learning Irish.

That’s not a fact, because the State doesn’t decide they know better than parents when it comes to learning Irish. In order for that to happen, they’d have to care about every parents ability to educate their own children, and they don’t.

That’s not a politician’s answer either, a politician, especially one in Government, would want you to believe that the State cares deeply about your children’s education. If you’ve ever had any reason to question that idea, you find out very quickly how much the State doesn’t care about any children’s education.

I've noticed this: people who have learnt English as a second language have better grammatical understanding than native English speakers. But my understanding is that you get this from learning ANY language as a a second language.

The State (which is what I assume you’re referring to), doesn’t have any involvement in the decision? The extent of any involvement from the Minister for Education (as opposed to the State), is that they maintain a panel for the appeals process, which constitutes the Irish Exemptions Appeals Committee.

That could only happen if the school rejects the parents application, because the parents apply to the school for an exemption, and it’s the school makes any initial decision -

1. A parent/guardian must make an application in writing to the principal of the school for a Certificate of Exemption from the study of Irish on behalf of a pupil.

…

Where the application for exemption from the study of Irish is refused, an applicant can appeal the school’s decision to the Irish Exemptions Appeals Committee (IEAC). The IEAC will comprise three persons who shall be selected from a panel of persons established and maintained by the Minister, having regard to the need for each IEAC to have available to it: 

• Experience and skills in the provision of or inspection of special education in schools

• Experience and skills in the area of educational psychology and/or child and adolescent wellbeing and mental health 

• Experience and skills in the leadership and administration of schools

• Experience and skills in the initial or continuing education of teachers of pupils with special educational needs. 

The IEAC will make a decision on whether the exemption should be granted or not, inform the school of the decision and require the school to give effect to their decision. In making a decision the IEAC will consider the decision of the school and the grounds given for refusing the application, the criteria set out in this Circular and any supporting documentation that was available to the school, contained in the Student Support Plan(s) and any supplementary information provided to the school by the applicant. The appeal should be made on the appropriate form published on the Department’s website. 

The appeal must be lodged within 30 calendar days from the date of the written decision of the school not to grant an exemption was notified in writing to the applicant.

https://assets.gov.ie/232777/c56982eb-0688-4341-927a-259269c9e5c1.docx

And who has decided that you need to.apply for an exemption in the first place...?

That's a bit rich to say the least.

So what exactly is bullshit about saying that parents, as the primary educators of their children, should be able to opt them out of any subject?

So, state trumps patents case closed, good night.

No, the State does not trump parents, it’s not case closed at all, and your effort to point score certainly doesn’t support your contention that the State has any regard for the individual students education at the level you’re attempting to reach for in Irish schools.

The State only requires that children receive a minimum standard of education. How parents or guardians achieve this, is entirely up to them. They are not obligated to enrol their children in schools recognised by the State, and the State has no involvement in whether or not any individual student shall be exempted from learning Irish.

Of course it's case closed - unless you can give a viable option to state schools or convince me thst he minister for education is not working for the State.

Its all.smoke and mirrors with you. Isn't it?

If the parents decide, as the primary educator ofctheir child, that it is in said child's best interests to be educated in a state school for their leaving cert but not learn irish, and the State refuses to comply it is trumping the parent.

The State is there to serve, not to dictate.

No, the Minister for Education doesn’t control education on behalf of the State, they control the Department of Education on behalf of Government.

No, there’s no smoke and mirrors, I’ve been telling you straight out that you just don’t have an argument. I don’t have to give you anything, nor do I have to convince you of anything. Frankly you’re not even at the races with the nonsense you’re coming out with, but that’s ok because it simply means that the position of the Department of Education in relation to the status of the Irish language on the national curriculum isn’t under threat any time soon.

I know I'm going to regret asking this, but: what's the difference between "on behalf of the State" and "on behalf of the Government"?

You realise that that entire paragraph is an ad homeinem, right? Not one part of it attacks my argument, it entirely condescends to me personally. Second time you've done that today.

Your entire argument is a Hobson's Choice fallacy and this proves you can't defend it.

Hi, just reading thread and a lot of times people are saying Irish is compulsory, what does that mean?

I did the LC in the 90's and opted out of Irish, I wasn't allowed to by the school but I just didn't go to it after junior cert. I did the the LC and went to University in Ireland(my choice was reduced) I presume my LC is valid.

If it was approached correctly in primary then most would keep in on at secondary level even if it was optional. Let's face it, it's a much easier subject than English......when someone is fluent or close to fluent.