Promotion, but taking someone else's job

theresapie · 12-01-2023 4:25pm #1

I started my current job a year ago. My team is about 15 people, and our team lead has been in the company 10+ years and is by far the most senior and most knowledgeable, is incredibly helpful and has a ton of knowledge.

Last year my manager asked me to consider the team lead position (replacing the current team lead). This year he has given me a deadline of end of January to let him know if I would accept it.

I explained that I didn't feel great taking the other person's job and it could make the daily work situation awkward. He sympathised, but said that ultimately I need to think of my own career.

I'm not sure if it's relevant, but the promotion has a very modest increase in salary this year (due to company's economic situation), but a proper increase in 2024 if I prove myself.

I think I want the promotion, but I also don't want to "upset" relationships in work, especially being relatively new. I guess I can't have it both ways though.

Not sure which way I should go. Has anyone been in such a situation, or have any advice on this?

Diceicle · 12-01-2023 5:07pm

What is the plan for the current Lead? Demotion or retirement?

How loyal are your team members to the Lead and how would they react to your perceived usurping of his/her job?

theresapie · 12-01-2023 5:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099167#Comment_120099167

Demotion. I have a small suspicion that he would actually be ok with this, or that he even asked for it, as he seems pretty burned out doing it for so many years.

I don't know how the other colleagues would react. We're all in relatively senior roles so I would hope by now they know enough of the corporate world to understand how these things work.

Sleepy · 12-01-2023 5:36pm

If you want the role, why not have an informal chat with the current team lead about it?

victor8600 · 12-01-2023 5:41pm

Last year my manager asked me to consider the team lead position (replacing the current team lead).

It's a difficult decision, you have to decide whether taking the position is good for you and the team, and take into account the management and the current team lead.

Do you know why the management wants to replace the team lead?

It could be the lead cannot grow their career in the company and there is only way for them is to go. The company may have no higher position to offer the lead and the lead is not happy with the lack of the advancement. Please talk to the lead and try to see if this is the case. If it is, the decision is clear.
The management just tries to save a few bob by replacing the current team lead with you. In that case, if you take the position, it may be difficult to prove your value to the team.
You are significantly better (in the eyes of the management) than the current lead. Maybe you are more receptive to the management's ideas, or you generate ideas that the management likes. Think what you want to achieve with the team -- is you being in charge gets the job done better?

daheff · 12-01-2023 5:43pm

don't fall for the 2024 payrise spiel. there'll be another reason in 2024 why its not what it should be. Either get paid the going rate or don't do it. You are a mug otherwise.

also for the other lead - if they seem burnt out doing it......well guess what your future holds?

Ultimately you need to weigh up will A) you get paid properly for the role. B) will it be beneficial to your career long term (most likely at another company) and C) how will the extra workload affect you & your work/life balance.

From experience, a small pay rise is not enough compensation for huge extra amounts of stressful work. Whats your plan if you can't handle that ? can you be demoted back to your old job, or will you need to resign?

Calahonda52 · 12-01-2023 5:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099252#Comment_120099252

I have my doubts about the last sentence, below, if you have to think about this when you boss offers you a slam dunk promotion, based on one years service in your current role.

We're all in relatively senior roles so I would hope by now they know enough of the corporate world to understand how these things work.

What are your person management skills like?

As for this

If you want the role, why not have an informal chat with the current team lead about it?

no such thing as informal chats at work

gameoverdude · 12-01-2023 5:44pm

One thing about the 2024 increase, don't believe it.

Otherwise, yep. Go for it. At worst it'll look good on your cv.

Cyrus · 12-01-2023 5:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099344#Comment_120099344

this, either they want you for the job and the salary that goes with it or they dont, dont fall for that line.

theresapie · 12-01-2023 5:57pm

Some very interesting takes here, especially what daheff said.

I'm not naive about the salary increase - there's a chance they won't be in a position to do it next year either. But I am not that concerned about the money aspect - I already got a big increase a few months ago. Of course I want to be paid the going rate for the this job, but this is not a big motivating factor.

I think the job would be good for my career (either here or in another company), and I think I would be good at it.

Some other things to consider:

I am not going to talk to the current TL about this. I don't know if they are aware their current job is in jeopardy.
I don't know why he is being demoted. For all I know he could have asked for this himself
Demotion is in name only, they will not get paid any less
If I don't take this, my guess is it will be offered to one of the others

Flinty997 · 12-01-2023 6:06pm

You've no choice and after a year no loyalty. But what management do to the TL they will do you, eventually. Sounds like cost cutting. Which is why a future increase seems unlikely to match the TL. It maybe the TL wants to step back.

victor8600 · 12-01-2023 6:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099404#Comment_120099404

The involuntary demotion of the current lead could be very detrimental to the team's morale. The lead must go if you are taking their position.

Cyrus · 12-01-2023 6:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099404#Comment_120099404

take the promotion but on the basis of the correct salary, maybe today it doesnt matter so much to you but it will in 6 months, especially if the newly demoted TL is earning more and enjoying the lack of responsibility he or she now has.

Flinty997 · 12-01-2023 6:19pm

If the lead want to step back they should make that known. But I can't see how they won't still end up doing much the same job given their experience.

almostover · 12-01-2023 6:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099404#Comment_120099404

What are your career aspirations and why? Make sure you asked yourself this question before making your decision. Very easy to get caught up in the hamster wheel of corporate life if you're not careful to reflect on why you're doing what you're doing.

Look at the existing TL. To me, he's asked himself that question and has made the decision to step aside. Is he much worse off? You've alluded to the fact that he isn't from a financial perspective at least. He probably won't progress further in this company but maybe the work/life trade off of being the team lead was too much and he decided that taking a step back was better for his wellbeing.

If you're taking this promotion for your career what are you using it as a stepping stone towards? The promotion isn't coming with much financial gain. So what's the upside for you? Is there a logical next step in 5 years time if you do well at the TL role? Do you want to make that next step? Does it fit in with your plans for life?

rob316 · 12-01-2023 6:29pm

Only question you should be asking is the increased work load of been TL worth the "very modest salary increase"? You said the current one is burned out.

Don't fall for that 2024 shite either, 12 months is a long time in business

daheff · 12-01-2023 6:30pm

if the ex TL is being demoted, but not taking a pay cut then i'd find it very hard to not be getting paid the going rate. Otherwise you find yourself in the position where the junior on the team earns more, knows more and has less responsibility than the TL. in my experience that never ends up well. backseat driving and all that. They could be setting somebody up for a fall here. be a bit careful

theresapie · 12-01-2023 7:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099498#Comment_120099498

I suspect you are correct about the current TL.

From my side, I think I'm being lead towards a people management role. I expressed interest in this during my interview, and have since been put on a number of "HR Management" courses, and I suspect this TL role is a stepping stone to that. Current TL did not want to do this so I guess he got as far as he could.

This thread has been extremely helpful and made me think of this in a new way. I need to seriously think about this, and talk to my manager to try to get some more information if possible.

I think even though in theory I don't care about the money that much, from people's comments here I should make this a deciding factor. If they can't offer the increased salary in 2023 then I probably shouldn't take it.

almostover · 12-01-2023 7:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099704#Comment_120099704

You state that you're being lead towards people management. Is that a long term career aspiration for you? If it is then it may be worth overlooking the financial shortcomings of the team lead role, for the 1st year anyway, and use this as an opportunity to test drive being a people leader. If that is the case then I would ask the question of your management as to what your options are in two scenarios.

1. The test drive goes well and you want to pursue a career path in people management. This may mean a few more years at TL level first in which case I would insist on the appropriate pay rise after the test drive period.

2. You don't like the TL role and realise the people management path isn't for you. What's your exit path? Can you do what the current TL has done?

Try to make this situation a win-win for yourself. Your employer needs someone to step into the TL role, so you can dictate the terms to an extent. Make it work for you! Could be a good opportunity to work out your long term career aspirations without taking on much personal risk.

thefa · 12-01-2023 7:25pm

As others have said, you need to play a bit of hardball on the salary if you decide to go for it.

With the potential for tougher times on the horizon, you need to get as much guaranteed up front. It will be your baseline for future increases so even more impactful if you end up going up the ladder later on which you say is a possibility.

Also factor in tax. The net pay of a modest increase might be inconsequential for the additional responsibilities and stress.

They seem keen on you taking it and avoid costs of going external. Back yourself.

theresapie · 12-01-2023 7:43pm

Here are the actual numbers:

Current salary - 80k

"Modest increase" - 85k

Actual salary for TL - 106k

Current TL is in the position for many years so would probably be around the 120k region with the annual increases he has gotten.

I am not going to notice the increased salary, if anything I'll increase my AVC and savings. I don't think my day to day spending will change.

But I fully take onboard that I need to take a tougher stance on this.

almostover · 12-01-2023 7:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099878#Comment_120099878

Ya they're taking advantage of you with that. Need to play hardball with them if that's the case. They need you more than you need the TL role.

Furze99 · 12-01-2023 8:06pm

Talk to the current team leader first. If they are pissed off, it'll likely make your life very difficult, a poisoned chalice. But if they are genuinely amenable and that's known by others, that'd be easier ground. But are you also jumping over other peoples heads who might have expected promotion??

homewardbound11 · 12-01-2023 8:19pm

Sound like toxic management really can’t be good for either of you .

Cyrus · 12-01-2023 8:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099878#Comment_120099878

thats 20k you are leaving on the table, put it all in your pension if you want but make sure you get it, the reason you go to work is to get paid, it’s important to enjoy it too but don’t lose sight of why you are there.

thefa · 12-01-2023 8:32pm

They are taking the mick with a 6.3% increase, 21k/20% below the going rate you mention.

People can be getting a few percent increase in annual appraisals on their current role with some companies.

For a decent promotion, I would be thinking 15-20% minimum which would still land you well below the going rate.

Manion · 12-01-2023 8:33pm

There is a difference between roles and seniority. I don't know if this is a tech role but in tech it's not uncommon for a team lead not to be the more senior or even highest paid person on the team. Folks are suggesting you're getting screwed over by no being on the same pay grade as a person whose been leading a fairly large team for quiet some time.

Also it's not that odd for people to step back from leadership roles, especially if they can continue to contribute on an individual contributor track. In general once someone is earning X they cannot be forced to accept a lesser salary due to demotion, so my default would be to assume this person will continue with their existing salary.

Tbh it sounds like they might have hired you with this change in mind. In a couple weeks time you may be the lead for this person and you'll also have to manage the communication around the change to all other people. Sooner or later you're going to need to have a conversation with them around it.

Kurooi · 12-01-2023 8:33pm

If they're talking about demoting the current TL then they're gonna. Whether you take it or not.

And then someone else will take it, or they will hire externally. Consider how you feel about those outcomes. Your job is about to change, things are going to be awkward. Regardless of the decision you make, the world moves around you.

theresapie · 12-01-2023 8:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120100114#Comment_120100114

Yep, this is in tech. Interesting take on it.

Manion · 12-01-2023 9:26pm

OK well to double down on a few things then, and obviously every situation has it's specific but having worked in tech (and I make a distinction here to working in I.T more generally such as the I.T department of a business) for a couple decades at this stage, team lead roles can be vary significantly. I noticed from your description that even though this person was the team lead for your team that at least you (an I assume all the team) have a reporting manager who isn't the team lead. This is absolutely typical in tech where a team lead is seen as a stepping stone on a management track and maybe more about coordination and day to day running of the team, ensuring delivery etc. Positional seniority tends to be much less of a thing and you are far more likely in a role like team lead to have to nominally manage people who are more senior to you as the role is more about deciding what gets done, when it gets done, and who is gets done by then being a decision maker.

You shouldn't view this as taking someone's job because by the sounds of things you're not, you're simply take responsibility for an aspect of someone's current role, an aspect they may be perfectly happy to move on from. Again this is super common, happens all the time in more fast paced environments and doesn't reflect negatively on them.

I'd be less worried about this one persons take and more about if the expectations of the role have been made clear to you. Being a TL for a team with no line responsibility but significant accountability can be challenging.

Strumms · 12-01-2023 9:46pm

The ‘prove yourself’ line is a load of hokey bôllocks in fairness.

the manager has essentially asked you to do the job by requesting you to apply for it. They see you as a preferred and valid candidate…

any pay rise should be commensurate with the responsibilities and expectations of that position from the get go.

Manion · 12-01-2023 9:56pm

Maybe expectations aren't the same from day 1. For the sake of argument lets assume there is a spectrum of expectations where if you're hitting the very top of that benchmark you'll get the very top end of the pay spectrum and if you're still learning on the Job, covering the basic but not much more than you're at the lower end of that spectrum. If you get big money, the expectation is big results and hitting the ground running day one. The agreement to review in a years time is pretty solid and reasonable. Again there are certain norms within tech that would raise eye brows outside and vice versa. Not saying they're aren't taking advantage but equally they are providing an opportunity to get leadership experience, something that will really enhance a CV.

theresapie · 12-01-2023 10:07pm

Jeez, I was strongly leaning in one direction with this, but the last few posts from @Manion have made me rethink.

I have worked in tech for over 20 years, and have only ever worked in this field. I didn't realise the "rules" were different to other employers, I assumed this is how things worked everywhere.

Manion · 12-01-2023 10:23pm

Nope, for instance my husband works in the Public sector where there is zero distinction between role, responsibility, seniority and title. There is a spectrum for companies and what I describe is very much the valley approach. The roles I've had in tech mean I've been behind the looking glass on this stuff a lot and the perception within a team of how management works can be very different to the reality.

A good mental model for this is that pay increases and promotions are one and the same. You moving to TL is not a promotion, it's a sideways move with a change in responsibilities. This chap leaving the role is not a demotion it's a sideways move with a change in responsibilities. A year from now when you have your review and get the bump, that's the promotion. Also, for what its worth, I think your manager is doing you a solid starting you off at a lower band than the existing TL as it gives you time to ease into the role.

There is a lot of material out there on leadership without authority which is worth a read.

gameoverdude · 12-01-2023 10:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120100609#Comment_120100609

Disagree completely.

Your manager is not doing you a favour. They're to promote on the cheap and it is a promotion.

Yes, they are correct that you'll have to learn new skills, but you'll have way more responsibilities as well as your old job.

You will not get a decent wage increase in 12 months. There'll be some excuse. Cv though...

Manion · 12-01-2023 10:53pm

Shrug. Maybe you're right, I don't pretend there are absolutes. More responsibility and more workload doesn't often follow to equal a promotion or pay increase in tech. They're a correlation there but it's quiet loose, at least that's my experience. Also I'd challenge the idea, especially in tech, that every incremental career step has to be accompanied by a financial gain. The earning power in tech can be insane but it's based on experience. A couple years ago I worked with a chap in a similar both the the OP, asked to take on a TL roll after the departure of a Manager, and while he did it for a bit he was really pissed off about the lack of matching pay to the point where he told them to pay him or hire someone else, so they hired someone else. When I've mentored people I've tried to encourage them to take a step back and look at the landscape of their career and assess every opportunity from a multitude of angles.

I harp on about this because as the OP said the money isn't a big motivator, and I think that is a good mindset to have going into something like this, but feelings of being exploited or screwed over can sour an experience and money most certainly can be a big demotivator.

caviardreams · 12-01-2023 11:31pm

OP do you have any people management experience? If not, I can understand the lower pay in the first year. Your first year (and more) in people management is pure development, despite what you might think about being able to handle it and knowing how to work well and collaborate successfully with people - driving performance and accountability, and leading people is very different. The company is open to giving you a 12 month sandbox with less performance pressure, and to absorb all the mistakes you will make while learning

If you already have a few years of people mgmt experience under your belt it is a different story, and I would be asking for more.

Cyrus · 12-01-2023 11:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120100540#Comment_120100540

If you don’t take the role and they hire someone else do you think they will be marketing it as an 85k role or a 100k plus role ?

also I presume you are in your 40s now it’s not as if you are wet behind the ears.

Business is business be it tech finance or anything else, people tell themselves different things but ultimately if it’s a career you are after it’s about progressing and being paid accordingly.

StupidLikeAFox · 12-01-2023 11:47pm

Very strange that they are offering it to you after a year's service, without competition, despite being in a team of ten. Surely there are others in the team with longer service who would have at least liked an opportunity to interview for the role?

Are you sure you are being offered the role, or are you just being encouraged to apply as well other team members?

CramCycle · 13-01-2023 12:07am

Loads of red flags but on the same note, if you are up to it, loads of benefits. If they are in a bad economic situation, ignore the 2024 thing.

1. It looks good on your CV, start looking elsewhere as soon as you have it as you are only new and they want a scapegoat for a bad year for senior management.

2. They genuinely think it's a good call, but still, if they can't offer you the money, have a recruiter scouting round for you as a safety net.

3. Someone more senior watched some BS American movie about testing people and is judging you on whether you'll take the leap.

None of this matters though. If you can do it, take it and get the notch on your belt but be prepared to jump ship.

Count Dracula · 13-01-2023 1:14am

It's an odd offer and I am struggling with the management structure if I am being flippant.

Who is your boss, your team leader, or the creepy "manager" offering you a leg up, with no benefits, by the end of January .. or else?

Somewhere between the lines I noticed a 14k wage bump for your current TL and the Co's option of sidelining that person to promote you and give you an extra 6k.... am I right here?

Assuming I am correct your TL is not getting the extra 14k you are estimating, especially as their job is getting changed... and it most surely is.

How sure are you of the fact that maybe the company is considering axing staff and to enable this they have decided to drop anyone new in the last say .. 3 years? Maybe they have a verbal with the TL, who they must value after 10 years investment, has shown proof of successfully navigating a large team of 15 professionals and by your account is due a 10% pay bump? Bear with me... say your manager knows your TL over those ten years, is his side line demotion a roundabout way of securing his future or enabling some sort of other management restructure? I have no clue, but given the limited info about your Co dynamic such scenarios are not entirely impossible? 10 year's is a long time working with someone, I am slightly struggling with how your TL is apparently getting the shift in this scenario. I could be wrong.

It would read better and I could find it more obvious if your TL was dead wood, or was seen as a threat further upstairs, but it never works that way in reality? People who get shít done are never sidelined, not even for 14k, they are too reliable and useful. All in all from what you are describing your offer does not make full sense... something is up?

theresapie · 13-01-2023 8:40am

Some more info on the team structure:

The team of around 15 people all report into the same HR manager, who does reviews, performance, hiring, and is the decision maker and budget holder for the team. But each team also has a Team Lead who is responsible for day to day and operational tasks of the team, projects, presentations to upper management. TL has much more knowledge of the actual work the team does (and does a certain amount of this work as well), does not have any direct reports, and is a step between the team members and management. I guess it would also be called a supervisor in some other companies.

I'm being given first refusal on the offer, they will move to the second best candidate if I say no. It will be be another person within the team - hiring a TL externally is not done as it requires a certain amount of job knowledge. If the offer it to someone else, they cannot offer 106k (as they were refused budget to hire a person at this grade) but may offer more than 85k, given the person may already be on this salary or higher.

I guess going with me is the cheapest as I'm one of the newest on the team. I would be doing the same job as the current TL for around 35k less.

January/ February is our annual review time, and I would expect that I would get a small increment, from 80 to 82k. With that, the "promotion" would only be 3k a year, so barely anything.

Based on some comments on this thread, I'm thinking that this is really a stepping stone to one of the (people) manager positions, and this is their way of testing me out for a year.

maninasia · 13-01-2023 9:40am

OP laid is all out . The cost differential for him taking this role is 40k on the current TL. They then try to defer any further bump for at least 1 year. No big pay rises coming.

'Refused budget'

Seems to me to be a cost savings exercise, and I would bet they are hoping the ex TL leaves. Then they save up to 80k or maybe 160k over a few years on team costs.

Senior mgmt told to save money so they are looking for savings.

Two birds with one stone, get fresh blood into the role that can be moulded too.

This doesn't mean its not an opportunity for OP, but its mostly about bigger picture cost savings I bet.

Tech also has to catch up with regular business cutbacks too..

It could be more than that, but these days mgmt often wants the cost savings more and NOW.

thefa · 13-01-2023 11:10am

Regardless of what industry standards people want to apply - essentially getting €3k on top of €82k for a step up is poor.

Purely by the logic that you would expect €2k in your upcoming appraisal, then the €85k should be €87k. If they are not willing to move up to at least €90k from €87k for the most suitable candidate then they have very significant financial constraints. At even €90k they would still make significant savings on the €106k and you would have almost €5k net rather than €5k gross.

It sounds like a great opportunity to grow and money not being a big motivator is fine but there is no harm backing yourself and negotiating with solid reasoning so you get some value out of it too.

Count Dracula · 13-01-2023 12:09pm

I can't disagree with either of the above, it does look like some sort of a cost cull.

I can't comprehend the motivation however, it just makes no sense?

You appear to be moving a few goalposts op. Apols for invigorating, but from where are getting the TL 14k bump from? Is this public knowledge, if not, who conveyed this information to you?

If it is a case of a cost saving, I don't think it looks like a stepping stone to anywhere? The demotion of such an experienced TL may not filter down as seamlessly as you envisage. What are you going to do if your TL takes the hump, goes sick for a month, jumps ship to a competitor and brings 3-4 key staff with them and leaves you with the remaining humps who are left with a team now depleted by 33% of quite possibly its' best former operatives. Now you are left doing a 15 person job with 10 so and so workers and yourself, who in all fairness has only been working within that team for 12 months?

That scenario sounds tragic, but I really am not seeing the sense in your own Co trying to restructure a winning, functioning team? Across all industry there is a demand for better staff, especially in our domestic employment market. That being the case it seems unwise for your managers ( still struggling to get a handle on who your bosses are tbh? ) to be looking to facilitate change unless it was fundamental to your Co's survival. If 40 k really matters all that much I wouldn't be hanging around either?

theresapie · 13-01-2023 12:25pm

On the salary, the company publishes the salary for all positions within your own area. I can check roughly what other people in my business area are earning based on their grade (not accounting for any salary negotiation or annual increments they have gotten). I can check what the starting salary for any job is also.

The difference in salary is around 21k, not 40k. 40k is based on ten year's of service, which I don't have. But 21k is still a lot.

The reporting/ management structure is explained a bit further up. Being a TL doesn't mean that I have any direct reports, and the whole team still report to the same manager. TL has a bit more authority and responsibility, but ultimately the manager is the boss. The decisions around hiring, promotions, demotions are made by my manager, and that manager's manager.

Count Dracula · 13-01-2023 5:41pm

I would chase with the hare and run with the hound if I were you.

Take your promotion, congratulations to you. Accept it now, it will put senior mgt on the back foot as regards your plans and it will allow them focus elsewhere. Be careful with any dealings with your TL going forward, even if they are extremely positive about the move. Eitherway you should see how this is panning out fairly readily once February, March and April are through? It is holiday time then, so things will be routine, until whatever the longtime objective materialises around September ( if not earlier ). Keep your head down and get stuck into the role, whatever you do... don't get bogged down in any HR crap, that place sounds like it is dripping with well enough of that? That being the case get stuck into getting your targets and licking ass, I am sure you can manage that for a year or so.

Forget your pay raise in 12 months, those carrots are always, always lies. In fact one of the unfortunate aspects of you biting for promotion is that your bosses now know that you are now very ambitious and a " Company Man"... they love those. Put simply, they now realise that you are more motivated by your status within an organization, as opposed to how much money it is making for you? It is a very thin line that only gets sharper, but they will use that against you in every wage deal as long as you are there, good luck with that. It is often seen as a blackmark for senior progression within companies, as more senior staff, with more responsible positions, will unfortunately now judge you as not having the beans for dealing with difficult financial decisions. The fact that you are prepared to sacrifice your own income is not a glowing indictment of how you might manage a P/L, if that is something that ever materialised? Only you can answer that at this stage.

If you get a chance in the next 3 weeks I would try to suss out why that TL is getting the shift? THey are either, getting a promotion, getting the shift or someone upstairs spots 40 k lying around and decided to get stuck in and grab it. Most likely the latter. When you slide up that pole you will see what goes on.

Fair play to whoever created that 40k, nice, it goes on everywhere.

This is an amazing thread, I am so excited for your future, please let us know how you get on, what a conundrum !!!!

spaceHopper · 13-01-2023 6:01pm

Without finding out why the current team lead is been replaces I wouldn't take it. If they are happy for you to take the role then I'd have expected them to have been in the room with you. If they don't know about it then don't take it. Do you want to be know as backstabber.

Why are they burned out and will the same happen to you.

Who will replace you or is this an additional responsibility, if it is additional responsibility then that to me is a red flag they will work you hard till you crack.

If you are new to the team then why hasn't somebody else been asked to take it on, or did they and did they decline it.

The pay difference between you and the current TL is 40K. I'd look for a 20K bump now at the very least. If they say no then decline, it's not worth the hassle for just under 420 a month more.

If you all report to the same manager then you are more of technical lead and have no control over the other developers or engineers. That makes it had to do you job.

Manion · 14-01-2023 1:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120104072#Comment_120104072

I was a bit confused by this until I saw the comment on the profit and loss management. I don't think that will be part of the role the OP described. While some companies such as Amazon AWS have more localized responsibilities for things like P/L it would be extremely unusual in tech for a team lead to own the P/L. A team lead is closer to a scrum master than a general manager. Again it just goes to show the differences between different industries and a lack of harmonized terminology, and why all advice should be taken in context. Even within companies within departments this stuff isn't always super well defined. TLs are typically a junior management track role, in some companies they are even called associate Managers. I think you're approaching this from the perspective of a more senior role.

Also, the business about the pay never coming through I would disagree with. I've been both burnt and rewarded for trusting in these promises. The issue is if the person making the promise move on, often new managers see no reason to be beholden to previous promises. As an insight, back in 2021 we where looking to hire a couple Team Leads and 3 Software Engineers and put signed a contract with a recruiting agency for 100K to provide candidates to them. On average it was costing 25-30K for to recruit mid senior candidates. That said I've seen some frankly bizarre practices in terms of retention policies in tech that made little business sense.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120104151#Comment_120104151

That might be happening or it might not. ~7 years ago I went into a role in tech for a particular company, I reported into a Head who inturn reported into the VP/Exec. The role had a title and responsibilities where basically whatever you could name. Progressively overtime through organizational changes the line between me an the exec got further away and as new people joined the company I went from being the main person for an entire area to being one of many doing my Job. When I started to see people with 2-3 years experience being hired in to nominally do the same job I was I realized that overtime the seniority of the role had degraded. My title didn't change, nor did my pay it just became a more Junior role especially as we started filling in Director level, Head level, Senior Principle level roles. All this is to say that company needs change rapidly, and it sounds like the person doing the Job now is fairly senior in the company and probably knows if you're pulling down 120K but the company only thinks the role you're doing is worth 80K, you best explore options for having higher impact because you're in danger of being cut.

Flinty997 · 19-01-2023 9:56am

Doing the same role for less money suggests very clearly the role is being degraded. Still might be good boost for the CV.

rock22 · 25-01-2023 10:06am

Having re-read the thread i am still unclear on two very important points

1, Why does the manager want to get rid of the current TL?

2, Why did he/she offer this role to you a year ago, when you were only in the door, rather than another more experienced team member?

You have stated that " our team lead has been in the company 10+ years and is by far the most senior and most knowledgeable, is incredibly helpful and has a ton of knowledge.". That would suggest to me that you don't just the TL to be failing in any obvious way. There is no obvious reason to replace him.

And, if you were offered this role within weeks of joining the company (and you are not too clear when you were offered the role other than last year and you are working there for one year ) is it clear to you that other teams members would lack the skills for the role of TL?

Promotion, but taking someone else's job

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