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Promotion, but taking someone else's job



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭ Manion

    Maybe expectations aren't the same from day 1. For the sake of argument lets assume there is a spectrum of expectations where if you're hitting the very top of that benchmark you'll get the very top end of the pay spectrum and if you're still learning on the Job, covering the basic but not much more than you're at the lower end of that spectrum. If you get big money, the expectation is big results and hitting the ground running day one. The agreement to review in a years time is pretty solid and reasonable. Again there are certain norms within tech that would raise eye brows outside and vice versa. Not saying they're aren't taking advantage but equally they are providing an opportunity to get leadership experience, something that will really enhance a CV.

  • Registered Users Posts: 12 theresapie

    Jeez, I was strongly leaning in one direction with this, but the last few posts from @Manion have made me rethink.

    I have worked in tech for over 20 years, and have only ever worked in this field. I didn't realise the "rules" were different to other employers, I assumed this is how things worked everywhere.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭ Manion

    Nope, for instance my husband works in the Public sector where there is zero distinction between role, responsibility, seniority and title. There is a spectrum for companies and what I describe is very much the valley approach. The roles I've had in tech mean I've been behind the looking glass on this stuff a lot and the perception within a team of how management works can be very different to the reality.

    A good mental model for this is that pay increases and promotions are one and the same. You moving to TL is not a promotion, it's a sideways move with a change in responsibilities. This chap leaving the role is not a demotion it's a sideways move with a change in responsibilities. A year from now when you have your review and get the bump, that's the promotion. Also, for what its worth, I think your manager is doing you a solid starting you off at a lower band than the existing TL as it gives you time to ease into the role.

    There is a lot of material out there on leadership without authority which is worth a read.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭ Manion

    Shrug. Maybe you're right, I don't pretend there are absolutes. More responsibility and more workload doesn't often follow to equal a promotion or pay increase in tech. They're a correlation there but it's quiet loose, at least that's my experience. Also I'd challenge the idea, especially in tech, that every incremental career step has to be accompanied by a financial gain. The earning power in tech can be insane but it's based on experience. A couple years ago I worked with a chap in a similar both the the OP, asked to take on a TL roll after the departure of a Manager, and while he did it for a bit he was really pissed off about the lack of matching pay to the point where he told them to pay him or hire someone else, so they hired someone else. When I've mentored people I've tried to encourage them to take a step back and look at the landscape of their career and assess every opportunity from a multitude of angles.

    I harp on about this because as the OP said the money isn't a big motivator, and I think that is a good mindset to have going into something like this, but feelings of being exploited or screwed over can sour an experience and money most certainly can be a big demotivator.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,130 ✭✭✭ caviardreams

    OP do you have any people management experience? If not, I can understand the lower pay in the first year. Your first year (and more) in people management is pure development, despite what you might think about being able to handle it and knowing how to work well and collaborate successfully with people - driving performance and accountability, and leading people is very different. The company is open to giving you a 12 month sandbox with less performance pressure, and to absorb all the mistakes you will make while learning

    If you already have a few years of people mgmt experience under your belt it is a different story, and I would be asking for more.

  • Registered Users Posts: 18,407 ✭✭✭✭ Cyrus

    If you don’t take the role and they hire someone else do you think they will be marketing it as an 85k role or a 100k plus role ?

    also I presume you are in your 40s now it’s not as if you are wet behind the ears.

    Business is business be it tech finance or anything else, people tell themselves different things but ultimately if it’s a career you are after it’s about progressing and being paid accordingly.

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭ StupidLikeAFox

    Very strange that they are offering it to you after a year's service, without competition, despite being in a team of ten. Surely there are others in the team with longer service who would have at least liked an opportunity to interview for the role?

    Are you sure you are being offered the role, or are you just being encouraged to apply as well other team members?

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 23,005 Mod ✭✭✭✭ CramCycle

    Loads of red flags but on the same note, if you are up to it, loads of benefits. If they are in a bad economic situation, ignore the 2024 thing.

    1. It looks good on your CV, start looking elsewhere as soon as you have it as you are only new and they want a scapegoat for a bad year for senior management.

    2. They genuinely think it's a good call, but still, if they can't offer you the money, have a recruiter scouting round for you as a safety net.

    3. Someone more senior watched some BS American movie about testing people and is judging you on whether you'll take the leap.

    None of this matters though. If you can do it, take it and get the notch on your belt but be prepared to jump ship.

  • Registered Users Posts: 869 ✭✭✭ Count Dracula

    It's an odd offer and I am struggling with the management structure if I am being flippant.

    Who is your boss, your team leader, or the creepy "manager" offering you a leg up, with no benefits, by the end of January .. or else?

    Somewhere between the lines I noticed a 14k wage bump for your current TL and the Co's option of sidelining that person to promote you and give you an extra 6k.... am I right here?

    Assuming I am correct your TL is not getting the extra 14k you are estimating, especially as their job is getting changed... and it most surely is.

    How sure are you of the fact that maybe the company is considering axing staff and to enable this they have decided to drop anyone new in the last say .. 3 years? Maybe they have a verbal with the TL, who they must value after 10 years investment, has shown proof of successfully navigating a large team of 15 professionals and by your account is due a 10% pay bump? Bear with me... say your manager knows your TL over those ten years, is his side line demotion a roundabout way of securing his future or enabling some sort of other management restructure? I have no clue, but given the limited info about your Co dynamic such scenarios are not entirely impossible? 10 year's is a long time working with someone, I am slightly struggling with how your TL is apparently getting the shift in this scenario. I could be wrong.

    It would read better and I could find it more obvious if your TL was dead wood, or was seen as a threat further upstairs, but it never works that way in reality? People who get shít done are never sidelined, not even for 14k, they are too reliable and useful. All in all from what you are describing your offer does not make full sense... something is up?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 12 theresapie

    Some more info on the team structure:

    The team of around 15 people all report into the same HR manager, who does reviews, performance, hiring, and is the decision maker and budget holder for the team. But each team also has a Team Lead who is responsible for day to day and operational tasks of the team, projects, presentations to upper management. TL has much more knowledge of the actual work the team does (and does a certain amount of this work as well), does not have any direct reports, and is a step between the team members and management. I guess it would also be called a supervisor in some other companies.

    I'm being given first refusal on the offer, they will move to the second best candidate if I say no. It will be be another person within the team - hiring a TL externally is not done as it requires a certain amount of job knowledge. If the offer it to someone else, they cannot offer 106k (as they were refused budget to hire a person at this grade) but may offer more than 85k, given the person may already be on this salary or higher.

    I guess going with me is the cheapest as I'm one of the newest on the team. I would be doing the same job as the current TL for around 35k less.

    January/ February is our annual review time, and I would expect that I would get a small increment, from 80 to 82k. With that, the "promotion" would only be 3k a year, so barely anything.

    Based on some comments on this thread, I'm thinking that this is really a stepping stone to one of the (people) manager positions, and this is their way of testing me out for a year.

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,255 ✭✭✭ maninasia

    OP laid is all out . The cost differential for him taking this role is 40k on the current TL. They then try to defer any further bump for at least 1 year. No big pay rises coming.

    'Refused budget'

    Seems to me to be a cost savings exercise, and I would bet they are hoping the ex TL leaves. Then they save up to 80k or maybe 160k over a few years on team costs.

    Senior mgmt told to save money so they are looking for savings.

    Two birds with one stone, get fresh blood into the role that can be moulded too.

    This doesn't mean its not an opportunity for OP, but its mostly about bigger picture cost savings I bet.

    Tech also has to catch up with regular business cutbacks too..

    It could be more than that, but these days mgmt often wants the cost savings more and NOW.

  • Registered Users Posts: 699 ✭✭✭ thefa

    Regardless of what industry standards people want to apply - essentially getting €3k on top of €82k for a step up is poor.

    Purely by the logic that you would expect €2k in your upcoming appraisal, then the €85k should be €87k. If they are not willing to move up to at least €90k from €87k for the most suitable candidate then they have very significant financial constraints. At even €90k they would still make significant savings on the €106k and you would have almost €5k net rather than €5k gross.

    It sounds like a great opportunity to grow and money not being a big motivator is fine but there is no harm backing yourself and negotiating with solid reasoning so you get some value out of it too.

  • Registered Users Posts: 869 ✭✭✭ Count Dracula

    I can't disagree with either of the above, it does look like some sort of a cost cull.

    I can't comprehend the motivation however, it just makes no sense?

    You appear to be moving a few goalposts op. Apols for invigorating, but from where are getting the TL 14k bump from? Is this public knowledge, if not, who conveyed this information to you?

    If it is a case of a cost saving, I don't think it looks like a stepping stone to anywhere? The demotion of such an experienced TL may not filter down as seamlessly as you envisage. What are you going to do if your TL takes the hump, goes sick for a month, jumps ship to a competitor and brings 3-4 key staff with them and leaves you with the remaining humps who are left with a team now depleted by 33% of quite possibly its' best former operatives. Now you are left doing a 15 person job with 10 so and so workers and yourself, who in all fairness has only been working within that team for 12 months?

    That scenario sounds tragic, but I really am not seeing the sense in your own Co trying to restructure a winning, functioning team? Across all industry there is a demand for better staff, especially in our domestic employment market. That being the case it seems unwise for your managers ( still struggling to get a handle on who your bosses are tbh? ) to be looking to facilitate change unless it was fundamental to your Co's survival. If 40 k really matters all that much I wouldn't be hanging around either?

  • Registered Users Posts: 12 theresapie

    On the salary, the company publishes the salary for all positions within your own area. I can check roughly what other people in my business area are earning based on their grade (not accounting for any salary negotiation or annual increments they have gotten). I can check what the starting salary for any job is also.

    The difference in salary is around 21k, not 40k. 40k is based on ten year's of service, which I don't have. But 21k is still a lot.

    The reporting/ management structure is explained a bit further up. Being a TL doesn't mean that I have any direct reports, and the whole team still report to the same manager. TL has a bit more authority and responsibility, but ultimately the manager is the boss. The decisions around hiring, promotions, demotions are made by my manager, and that manager's manager.

  • Registered Users Posts: 869 ✭✭✭ Count Dracula

    I would chase with the hare and run with the hound if I were you.

    Take your promotion, congratulations to you. Accept it now, it will put senior mgt on the back foot as regards your plans and it will allow them focus elsewhere. Be careful with any dealings with your TL going forward, even if they are extremely positive about the move. Eitherway you should see how this is panning out fairly readily once February, March and April are through? It is holiday time then, so things will be routine, until whatever the longtime objective materialises around September ( if not earlier ). Keep your head down and get stuck into the role, whatever you do... don't get bogged down in any HR crap, that place sounds like it is dripping with well enough of that? That being the case get stuck into getting your targets and licking ass, I am sure you can manage that for a year or so.

    Forget your pay raise in 12 months, those carrots are always, always lies. In fact one of the unfortunate aspects of you biting for promotion is that your bosses now know that you are now very ambitious and a " Company Man"... they love those. Put simply, they now realise that you are more motivated by your status within an organization, as opposed to how much money it is making for you? It is a very thin line that only gets sharper, but they will use that against you in every wage deal as long as you are there, good luck with that. It is often seen as a blackmark for senior progression within companies, as more senior staff, with more responsible positions, will unfortunately now judge you as not having the beans for dealing with difficult financial decisions. The fact that you are prepared to sacrifice your own income is not a glowing indictment of how you might manage a P/L, if that is something that ever materialised? Only you can answer that at this stage.

    If you get a chance in the next 3 weeks I would try to suss out why that TL is getting the shift? THey are either, getting a promotion, getting the shift or someone upstairs spots 40 k lying around and decided to get stuck in and grab it. Most likely the latter. When you slide up that pole you will see what goes on.

    Fair play to whoever created that 40k, nice, it goes on everywhere.

    This is an amazing thread, I am so excited for your future, please let us know how you get on, what a conundrum !!!!

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,624 ✭✭✭ spaceHopper

    Without finding out why the current team lead is been replaces I wouldn't take it. If they are happy for you to take the role then I'd have expected them to have been in the room with you. If they don't know about it then don't take it. Do you want to be know as backstabber.

    Why are they burned out and will the same happen to you. 

    Who will replace you or is this an additional responsibility, if it is additional responsibility then that to me is a red flag they will work you hard till you crack. 

    If you are new to the team then why hasn't somebody else been asked to take it on, or did they and did they decline it. 

    The pay difference between you and the current TL is 40K. I'd look for a 20K bump now at the very least. If they say no then decline, it's not worth the hassle for just under 420 a month more. 

    If you all report to the same manager then you are more of technical lead and have no control over the other developers or engineers. That makes it had to do you job.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭ Manion

    I was a bit confused by this until I saw the comment on the profit and loss management. I don't think that will be part of the role the OP described. While some companies such as Amazon AWS have more localized responsibilities for things like P/L it would be extremely unusual in tech for a team lead to own the P/L. A team lead is closer to a scrum master than a general manager. Again it just goes to show the differences between different industries and a lack of harmonized terminology, and why all advice should be taken in context. Even within companies within departments this stuff isn't always super well defined. TLs are typically a junior management track role, in some companies they are even called associate Managers. I think you're approaching this from the perspective of a more senior role.

    Also, the business about the pay never coming through I would disagree with. I've been both burnt and rewarded for trusting in these promises. The issue is if the person making the promise move on, often new managers see no reason to be beholden to previous promises. As an insight, back in 2021 we where looking to hire a couple Team Leads and 3 Software Engineers and put signed a contract with a recruiting agency for 100K to provide candidates to them. On average it was costing 25-30K for to recruit mid senior candidates. That said I've seen some frankly bizarre practices in terms of retention policies in tech that made little business sense.

    That might be happening or it might not. ~7 years ago I went into a role in tech for a particular company, I reported into a Head who inturn reported into the VP/Exec. The role had a title and responsibilities where basically whatever you could name. Progressively overtime through organizational changes the line between me an the exec got further away and as new people joined the company I went from being the main person for an entire area to being one of many doing my Job. When I started to see people with 2-3 years experience being hired in to nominally do the same job I was I realized that overtime the seniority of the role had degraded. My title didn't change, nor did my pay it just became a more Junior role especially as we started filling in Director level, Head level, Senior Principle level roles. All this is to say that company needs change rapidly, and it sounds like the person doing the Job now is fairly senior in the company and probably knows if you're pulling down 120K but the company only thinks the role you're doing is worth 80K, you best explore options for having higher impact because you're in danger of being cut.

    Post edited by Manion on

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,534 ✭✭✭ Flinty997

    Doing the same role for less money suggests very clearly the role is being degraded. Still might be good boost for the CV.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,276 ✭✭✭ rock22

    Having re-read the thread i am still unclear on two very important points

    1, Why does the manager want to get rid of the current TL?

    2, Why did he/she offer this role to you a year ago, when you were only in the door, rather than another more experienced team member?

    You have stated that " our team lead has been in the company 10+ years and is by far the most senior and most knowledgeable, is incredibly helpful and has a ton of knowledge.". That would suggest to me that you don't just the TL to be failing in any obvious way. There is no obvious reason to replace him.

    And, if you were offered this role within weeks of joining the company (and you are not too clear when you were offered the role other than last year and you are working there for one year ) is it clear to you that other teams members would lack the skills for the role of TL?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,773 ✭✭✭✭ BattleCorp

    Is the current team leader performing poorly? If not, I'd wonder why he's being replaced? I wonder does he know he's being replaced?

    And if he doesn't know he's being replaced, it's poor practice by the company to be going about finding a replacement like this.