Russia - threadbanned users in OP

The Donbas has been a shítshow for a decade with existing loyalties driven by both sides, Ukraine and Russia. The latter only sees neighbouring countries in two ways, as obedient puppets or enemies. Ukraine made the lurch from the former to the latter and oul Vlad didn't like that one bit.

But let's say all of what you say is accurate and true. It's not BTW and it's certainly more complex than that. You've picked a side and ran with the simplistics like all who prefer the simple over the complex do. But anyway, let's say Mother Russia want to help Lugansk and Donetsk out of brotherly love and a sense of fairness; why didn't Mother Russia not just take those two areas alone? Go to the UN, "Do an America" claim genocide, weapons of mass destruction, the usual script and gone in. They could have done that far more easily with far fewer losses and it's also likely they could have gotten far more away with it too on the international stage, like they did with Crimea.

But Vlad didn't do that. Oh no, he decided to make his run for Kiev and force regime change, "remove" the government and put in one more "suitable to his needs". And no, it wasn't a "feint". Even Russia doesn't throw away the lives of some of their best troops in feints. If it were a feint, then that actually makes them even more incompetent. Like the "reason" they gave for giving up huge swathes of the east near overnight was spun as contractors just left after their contracts expired(yep an actual reason given). They appear to be so incompetent at fighting actual soldiers their spin is even more surreal. It literally makes them look worse.

But nope, Vlad and his minions vastly underestimated the resistance and vastly overestimated local support for Mother Russia and made his army and airforce and navy look like incompetents. His navy are hiding from a nation that doeesn't even have a navy. And he brought down the wrath of the vast majority of those who actually count in the international and financial world. If this was a US led coup and trap, OK, then; Vlad walked right into it.

Another interesting aspect to all this talk of pro Russian support in Ukraine, especially in the east and something I've not seen people mentioning. Insurgency behind the lines. On a very regular basis we hear of pro Ukraine people blowing stuff up behind the Russian lines, even assassinating pro Russian leaders behind Russian lines. However, when was the last time we heard of pro Russian insurgents operating behind Ukrainian lines? Funny that, if there are apparently so many pro Russia people in Ukraine...

But let's forget all that, forget the spin on both sides, forget the side anyone wants to take: Would tens of thousands of Ukrainians and Russians be dead, tens of thousands more crippled for life, millions displaced, economies runied, towns and villages flattened, if Russia hadn't invaded? That would be a clear and inarguable No. That's the only side that matters. The bald truth.

And before you pull the missilles pointed at Russia/NATO wanting to invade/Bla bla. That's all nonsense. All that enemy at the gates guff is Vlad wanting to distract from economic and other issues on the home front. Put "nazis" on your doorstep and that keeps his population distracted. I know a few Russians and I've personally seen their attitude to Ukrainians over the last ten years go from "brother slavs" to The Enemy in that time. And these are Russians living in the west with all the media open to them. Even at a distance they're remarkably easily led.

NATO had and has no interest in attacking Mother Russia. Remember the missile that killed two people in Poland? Zelensky was quick to point at Russia, but within hours the US and NATO were nope, likely Ukrainian gone astray, nothing to see here. Zelensky even complained his people weren't allowed to do their own investigations. NATO had the perfect false flag to up their game. They didn't. They dialled it right back.

Now they are happy to watch Russia bleed out and look like idiots and for a bargain basement price and no NATO troops coming back in cofffins. Result. Why would they risk more, even if Russia didn't have nukes? Fpr less than 2% of their annual budget they can watch Russia look like eejits. Again Vlad fúcked up. Monumentally.