Russia - threadbanned users in OP

I'm not unused to being on the minority side of a debate, so that aspect is frequently a given. But when I see people laughing at others being killed I do draw a line, and several posters here have done so, and sometimes in the most obnoxious manner. I suspect anyone laughing at Ukrainians being killed would be given short shrift on this thread - and rightly so.

Dying in a war as a conscript is one of the saddest things possible. Dying as a member of an elite unit, mind, or even as a regular soldier is different - still sad for your family of course, but when you signed up you knew that was a possibility.

Noted that instead of trying to refute the arguments put to you, which completely shred your claims to pieces and demonstrate your ignorance of basic facts about the situation - you play the victim card.

What stock debating tactic will you roll out next? We've already had whataboutery, false equivalence which you double down on now by implying we are using Nazi tactics against you.

I'll remind you:

The war started because the Ukrainian people refused to accept Russia's attempts to reduce it to a client state like Belarus, whether through corruption, economic war or outright war. With Yanukovych as the Lukashenko equivalent lapdog stooge.

Apparently anyone who doesn't lick Zelensky's nether regions is spreading "Putin's propaganda". It's like Bush's comment re Afghanistan, or was it Iraq - "If you're not with me then you're against me". That worked out well - didn't it?

Well, no, that's not the case here either. People are allowed to stand back and try to make sense of the situation they observe. Believe it or not, it is possible to dislike both sides in a conflict. It is possible to try to look behind the day to day events and try to make sense of what you see, try to work out what is real, what is propaganda etc.

One of sources I follow is liveuamaps.com, a Ukrainian source, to see whether there have been any changes on the ground.

Being listening to this podcast for a while but yesterdays episode was particularly good

Their guest, Dr Rory Finnin a Professor of Crimean history from Cambridge blows a hole in the whole 'but Crimea is Russian' and gives a really good synopsis of the whole Crimean Tartar ethnic cleansing. This campaign to remove native Crimeans and replace with loyal Russian subjects that was first proposed by Peter the Great, started by Catherine the Great and brutally completed by Stalin post WWII.

What I found interesting is that was that after they removed the native Tartars and replaced them with Russians there was massive famine and poverty as the knowledge of how to farm and cultivate the land had died with Tarters in the gulags in Siberia. This is why Kruschev had to 'gift' Crimea back to Ukraine proper as without the Ukrainian knowledge of how the manage the delicate eco system the whole peninsula was heading for disaster.

The (Soviet) Ukranians managed to avoid this disaster but of course now under Putin the we're going back to same 'eliminate the experts' / 'appoint loyal idiots' policy last seen since Uncle Joe was running the show.

Projection.

I've seen your posts before on this subject before. Multiple posters have pointed out and explained to you that you've been producing pro-Kremlin talking points.

There are those who use this "both-sides-ism" as an excuse to minimise Russia's actions and responsibility whilst concern-trolling about Ukraine and by extension the West. It's literally the propaganda used by Moscow ("Yes we're bad, but here are a bunch of lies and distortions to suggest they are just as bad")

Reminds of this

Then they run off saying "I wanted to debate!" without actually starting a debate. No proposal to discuss, e.g., "Russia was justified in its invasion of Ukraine, why or why not?" Or "Actions by Ukraine require international intervention, why or why not?"

Basic stuff. Just another self-professed 'contrarian' who is a legend in their own mind. And, way too lazy to look back on this thread to find out 1) Livuamaps has been mentioned here many times, at least 1 or 2 posters regularly read it and summarize the latest news 2) Talking about pre-invasion Ukraine wrt corruption by Yanukovych has been done to death here.

And complaining when some lame Putinbot who didn't understand what the .ie business meant is shown to be phony.

Sad, and predictable. I think this most recent one is just a 'useful idiot.' Vague memories of it showing up on the anti-vaxx threads, too, arguing the nonscientific 'contrarian' position, and losing the argument.

"If you're not with me then you're against me"

Now you understand. In times of brutal war and particularly when said war is enveloping the borders of Europe, you don't stand on the fence anymore. You are obliged to take one side or the other, despite your reservations.

Which side are you on? If you think that it's best that Russia prevail - just state that and be done with it.

If you think Ukraine should prevail and be allowed to control their own destiny, then state that.

There's no in between - it's one or the other. "If you're not with me then you're against me"

In times of brutal war ... You are obliged to take one side or the other

No, one is not obliged to do so. One can choose to do so, of course, but that is a choice.

But since you feel there is an obligation - which side do/did you support in these brutal conflicts:

Iraq-USA

Taliban/USA

Saudi/Yemen

Israel/Palestine

IRA/UK

One by one, now.

Interesting. I think Ukraine would be mad to follow. Putin probably knows that so he can point to Ukraine and say they don't want peace or negotiations.

Read something this morning about Patriarch Kirill calling for a truce to celebrate Orthodox Christmas. Is it to do with that? (edit: ignore - I see others have posted more about it now).

Seems a bit of a sad joke given all the Iranian drones Putin launched at Ukraine's cities to "celebrate" the New Year.

Whataboutism again.

This is simplistic Clare "the West are the real villains" Daly stuff. The more you write, the more you expose your own agenda.

If true I'd imagine it was some sort of domestic propaganda device "look we want peace but the Ukrainians are breaking the ceasefire"

Most of Ukraine is orthodox, not catholic. So it wasn't yet Christmas for them.

Orthodox christmas is the 7th of Jan

Not sure too much can be read into this : it appears to be for the Russian Orthodox Christmas period.