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Softening house market?

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Comments

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,675 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    What your stating in relation to the rental market seems to be at odds with reality.

    ... market rents nationally were on average 14.1 per cent higher in the third quarter of this year than they were in the same period of 2021 ...


    ... the highest level of annual rent inflation recorded by Daft since it started reporting on the market here in 2006 ...


    ... Daft said there were just 1,087 homes available to rent on its website on November 1st, down about 25 per cent on the same date last year ...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 398 ✭✭jimmybobbyschweiz


    Supply of rentals on Daft for Dublin city has almost doubled since August. It is a bell weather for the wider market. Dublin sneezes and the rest of the country gets the flu. Pay attention as this is happening in real time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,327 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Some mortgages going to be in trouble



    People who broke the tems they signed up for are later surprised that others don't want to take them on.........



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,675 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    I'm quoting an article from the 22nd of November 2022.

    You don't have to take my word for it, you can read the Daft.ie rental report for yourself. It sets out in black and white that supply is at a record low level.

    https://ww1.daft.ie/report/2022-Q3-rentalprice-daftreport.pdf

    This latest Rental Report contains more grim reading for those hoping for an end to Ireland’s rental woes any time soon. Each of the previous ten quarters had brought a new all-time high for the average market rent*. This quarter continues that trend, as rents rose again. That will surely not be a surprise to many.


    Screenshot 2022-12-10 at 10.02.45.png Screenshot 2022-12-10 at 10.03.13.png




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 398 ✭✭jimmybobbyschweiz


    With rising mortgage rates and more expensive properties, new mortgagors will find that actually the gap between the mortgage and rent is not as great as it once was and, with an expectation for property prices to fall, if one could hold off, why not wait and see a bit longer? If you are in a tenancy you are no longer able to be kicked out of the rental and the rent increases are limited to 2% pa (which we all know is going to become an out and put rental freeze before too long); it isn't that bad for existing renters currently, at least they are not at the mercy of rising rates.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 398 ✭✭jimmybobbyschweiz


    Supply increases first, then the drops happen. Supply has only just started to increase the past three months, it will take a few more months for the drops to occur and then a bit longer for the data to emerge! We are at the precipice and it is an interesting view for most of us who have only really known a bull market in the property market for the vast majority of our adult lives, bar a blip 2009-2013.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,675 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    Supply is increasing at a marginal rate at best when you compare it to the historic average. Supply in November has been at a record low compared to the same period in time since 2006. Overall supply is well below what is needed to drive down rental prices, we're talking thousands of units below what is needed.

    Read the report. You're making out as if there has been a massive increase in supply. It hasn't transpired as of yet.

    We are still on the precipice? I was told last March that the collapse would be in full swing by December. In reality, rental prices and house prices have in fact increased. When will the collapse unfold?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,011 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    external factors such as rates, qe and now qt have also been playing a part in this game, with rates rising and with central banks committing to qt, the most likely outcome will be a fairly abrupt deflation of asset markets, including property, again, the over simplification of our property markets to basic metrics such as supply and demand really need to be ditched, since we ve moved into the financialized world of property....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,146 ✭✭✭Jizique




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,011 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    ....so we should further endanger effected property owners and tenants, just because some hold prejudicial views!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,146 ✭✭✭Jizique


    Why should property owners have their rents underpinned by the taxpayer? Cut the guarantee by 20%, a great reset if you will - nothing prejudicial



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,011 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    ...so again, you want to further expose everyone, sounds like a great plan!

    ...cause its clearly obvious, the whole process of financializing our property markets has collapsed, and we dont know what to do about it!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,081 ✭✭✭Jonnyc135


    I seen something in Bloomberg that stated that the ECB were only going to start QT next year 2023, I thought they were already doing it. Anyway alot of global recession talk for 2023 though mainstream media, I'm always of the opinion that when mainstream media is talking about a recession for 2023 then we are most likely already in one.

    Blackrocks Larry Fink reckons it will be a recession like no other as he says they won't be able to inject liquidity and lower rates for the recession comming in 2023, I would disagree as would the bond market but it remains to be seen how it will play out.

    Also alot of rumbling on a missing 65 trillion dollars in off balance sheet derivatives, this is really scary stuff. Thank Alan Greenspan and Larry Summers for pushing back big time in the early 2000s over not wanting to regulate derivatives.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,614 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    Will it work?

    Will it bring down rent? Or just put hundreds into emergency accommodation when they can't pay their rent.

    Yet another idiotic comment from someone who can't see beyond their own nose.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,327 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump




    Of course it would bring rents down. It's a bit silly to think otherwise. It would have other implications but it would most definitely bring rents down.

    Take a few billion out of any market and it will decrease.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭Timing belt


    They have started QT by not rolling over all the bonds when it matures…they just haven’t sold bonds like fed is doing.

    the derivatives piece is a red hearing as it’s all about a usd shortage and the fact that not enough usd in circulation to settle all the fx trades in existence and the risk that exchange rate goes through the roof as a result and institutions will have to pay to meet obligations. Fed won’t allow that to happen and will open swap lines with central banks to provide liquidity.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,081 ✭✭✭Jonnyc135


    That makes sense on the QT side, let's hope its a red herring.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,045 ✭✭✭MacronvFrugals



    More demand from the state if this cap on Shared Equity scheme prices is increased


    “Property price ceilings under First Home(Shared Equity) Scheme likely to be increased in a number of counties”





  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,327 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    More artificial inflation of the market by those in control of public money



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    There is huge demand, but much of it is latent because prices are too high.

    That demand will only become active when prices have dropped - a lot.

    Two things have happened recently - an increase in mortgage interest rates, and concurrently, a softening of conditions.

    The problem here is that if you cannot afford a mortgage now - how will you be affected by increased interest rates? On the other hand although the banks might be allowed to give out bigger mortgages to more people - will they relax their internal controls? I'd guess not, as they are apparently all still in a precarious position.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    Daft "reports" are not a neutral source. Daft is involved in the business of selling housing.

    I've always looked on Daft reports as a tool to push up sellers' expectations, and soften buyers up to pay higher prices. They quote "asking prices" as though they were actual prices, and even worse - they are quoted in that way in the media. The word "asking" is almost invariably left out of media accounts regarding Daft "reports".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    But of course it won't happen, because all those tenants, or many of them, are voters too and the current lot in government are already in an uncomfortable place according to the polls. They can't afford to alienate the property owners either, as most landlords vote for FG or FF as it is.

    SF (if they ever get into power) will be left with a big hot potato filled with brown stuff. And I doubt if they will know what to do with it either - unless they can find the dosh to carry out a massive programme of social house building.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 229 ✭✭byrne249


    I've decided this week to go out a buy 35 mins from the suburbs. The cheaper the house the less the price can fall after all! I find this conversation has degenerated into who can brag most forcefully about what they 'know' is going to happen. Then you have a guy responding to a comment with 'Blah blah blah'? Yet others fetishising the loss of tech jobs which I find in particularly poor taste.

    Anyway, it was nice to see some genuine opinions over the 7 months prowling this thread. It was less so to read the maniacal ravings of madmen. I've done a complete conversion from believing in a softening to accepting there is absolutely no sure thing in life other than a roof over your head.

    Plus, I know a phenomenal number of single/couples living at home with good salaries who want to buy. We will see how this cookie crumbles. Might lose a chocolate chip or two but no major split is my bet :)



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,675 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    I see where you are coming from, but they're widely acknowledged to be a reliable indication of market activity and we also have the RTB figures showing that rental prices are continuing to increase. Do we just rely on anecdotal accounts from posters on here? CSO figures showing house prices continuing to grow when the anecdotal accounts on here since last March predicted there would be a significant decline in prices by now. It's always down the road though.

    Last summer it was people were having one last hoorah before the recession and the whole thing would collapse in the winter. Now it's people having one last hoorah for Christmas.

    Meanwhile, a couple in Dublin who deferred buying a home last March to wait for the market to collapse will have spent over €17,200 on rent since then.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,327 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    You're generally better off buying in a good location if you want the house to retain value in the event of a disaster



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,146 ✭✭✭Jizique


    Rents would come down if the HAP which underpins rental levels is reduced (as long as it in in conjunction with other measures like no eviction which is in place, and proper immigration control and no housing benefit without employment).

    Alternatively, let's just increase HAP by 20% to ensure landlords are protected as interest rates rise.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,600 ✭✭✭fliball123


    I dont think we are anywhere near a precipice demand is still way too high we will have more people living in the is country next year than we did this year and building commencements are way down. Where are the houses for these people the only thing that will turn the tide is a massive uptick of new house completions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,614 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    If HAP was reduced by 20% the government would have to enforce an eviction ban on HAP renters.

    I say that rents wouldn't decrease because the issue is not solely pricing, it's also supply. Demand is too strong for prices to drop.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,146 ✭✭✭Jizique


    There is an eviction ban in place, and they would have to do something to dampen supply eg no support for anyone either EU or non-EU who cannot pay their own way



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 192 ✭✭IWW2900


    Actually its always the cheaper houses that get the highest drops, percentage wise.

    And these will be the ones the crash massively next year.

    The higher the prices, the less percent drop you will see. E.g. houses over 1 million might not see massive movement. But a house of 300k that got bid up to 400k can easily drop 30 - 50 percent. I have seen it all before.



This discussion has been closed.
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