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Received a letter from PIAB with false claims

  • 06-12-2022 11:22am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 8 kevinporter


    Hi, thanks for reading.

    I recently received a letter from the PIAB about a person accusing my dog of jumping on them and injuring them. This never happened and the only thing i can recall is back in July where my dog was briefly playing with another dog in the park and the other dog owner fell over, but wasn't even near either dog. I asked him was he ok and he said yes.

    In the PIAB letter there were injuries noted and a letter from a doctor. There was no proof/evidence of how he got the injuries or that a dog caused them. I am obviously not going to consent here, but what will happen next?

    All replies appreciated.

    Thank you,



«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 596 ✭✭✭AnRothar


    Do you have insurance on your dog?

    Do you have house insurance? Some house insurance policies have clauses regarding pets.

    If yes to either they will need to be advised.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,564 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Consult a solicitor.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8 kevinporter


    Hi, thanks

    No I don't have dog insurance and looks like my home insurance doesn't cover it. I have informed them though but also said this person completely made it up.

    Thanks.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8 kevinporter


    Thank you, Solicitor is working out more expensive than what the claim or damages actually is.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,260 ✭✭✭Kaisr Sose


    That sounds mad OP. They are alleging your dog attacked them on x date and you have no knowledge at all of this occurring?

    Do you know the person involved and if not, how did they get your details?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,768 ✭✭✭mumo3


    I'd be more curious as to how a stranger got your name and address!!

    Have you contact the PIAB and told them you've no idea what its about.



  • Registered Users Posts: 446 ✭✭Garibaldi?


    would there be cctv anywhere which might shed light on the matter? Any possible witnesses. Sounds like someone is taking the proverbial.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8 kevinporter


    yes, they live in the same estate and they have history of doing this. When the incident happened i did not know who they were. I know who they are now, but what i meant in op was that what my dog is accused of never happened.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8 kevinporter


    No, it was a dog park with no cctv around. Their word against mine i guess but doesn't stop me from being worried.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8 kevinporter


    was a stranger at the time, but from the PIAB letter they live across a green from me.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 446 ✭✭Garibaldi?


    Even if you had insurance it would not be right to allow this proceed uncontested. Your dog does not deserve to get a bad name for no reason.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,768 ✭✭✭mumo3


    Cheeky fcking mares if you ask me!! I understand you must be out of your mind with worry about this but just remind yourselves of the below information!!

    "In a civil case, the burden of proof is on the plaintiff or claimant. He must prove, on the balance of probabilities, that the facts alleged by him in his claim, are true. Proof on the balance of probabilities requires that the claimant shows that the facts he alleges are more likely than not to be true."

    Evidence Overview - McMahon Legal Guide



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,768 ✭✭✭mumo3


    Or worse an order to be destroyed... what is wrong with people!!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,260 ✭✭✭Kaisr Sose


    Under PIAB process you do not have to consent to the claim. The claimant then has to go the court route. If they are chancing their arm, this will make them consider whether that's worth the risk and cost. PIAB is a cheap roll of the dice for them in comparison.

    Did you consult a solicitor?

    How do you know what the cost will be of the claim? PIAB do not give a claim or award amount at the outset.

    No offence intended, is this a wind up by you?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭GavPJ


    Deny, deny deny. Best of luck. I don't think there is a judge in the country that would entertain this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,198 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    PIAB only assess damages for injuries. They don't determine liability.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8 kevinporter


    Thanks for your response.

    No, not a wind up. Wish it was. I never even heard of PIAB before this letter.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,490 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    OP said:

    Solicitor is working out more expensive than what the claim or damages actually is.

    Poster Kaisr Sose asked...

    How do you know what the cost will be of the claim? PIAB do not give a claim or award amount at the outset.

    OP, can you address this issue - did the PIAB letter say how much the claimant is seeking?



  • Registered Users Posts: 257 ✭✭phildub


    Tell piab you are not consenting to assessment and wait and see what happens. The new PIAB process was introduced to limit costs so a lay litigant cab do it themselves. If PIAB issue an authorisation for claimant to issue court proceedings that is when you need a solicitor.


    Under PIAB rules, and this is just from general reading, not advice, if piab assess an award at a certain amount you, as the respondent will have 30 days to accept or reject OR YOU WILL BE DEEMED TO HAVE ACCEPTED IT. So is important to engage with PIAB. If you are not admitting liability then you do not consent to assessment, if PIAB go ahead and assess then you need to respond and say you are not accepting. Again, not legal advise, this is just from reading.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,260 ✭✭✭Kaisr Sose


    Just on the above, and not legal legal advice either. A respondent can refuse PIAB consent at the outset. PIAB will then issue the claimant with an authorisation to proceed via the courts.

    Why consent, even without prejudice to their right to reject an award of damages etc, if they are absolutely certain they have no liability and this never happened?

    OP. Please contact Free Legal Advice centre for your options here. Citizens Information or PIAB websites will give you more information on this. It may be worth checking with your local Garda Station to see if a report was made or with the Dog Warden. The claimant will have to have some evidence this event took place as claimed.

    A claim is only a claim. It has to be proven. Determining liabllity is not the remit of PIAB.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,648 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Something similar happened to me a few years ago. Never heard from them again, I didn't recognise the name on the letter or anything so I think it might have been a scam, maybe check the authenticity of the letter before proceeding any further?

    In my case I wasn't worried as I don't and have never owned a dog, hence why I think it was a scam



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 243 ✭✭chunkylover4


    As above, refuse assessment asap.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,024 ✭✭✭3DataModem


    Get a solicitor. You want to be sure that if you end up paying a bill, that it is full and final settlement.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,003 ✭✭✭Eggs For Dinner


    I would be very surprised if your household insurance doesn't provide cover, as it is a standard extension (excluding certain breeds). If so, insurers retain the right to handle all matters as they see fit. If you take a course of action which prejudices their position, they can refuse to indemnify you. Unlike motor insurance (because it is a compulsory cover) insurers are not obliged to compensate a 3rd party if you are found liable and you will face all associated costs

    In short, check if your household insurance policy covers you and, if so, notify them and leave them to it. If not, contact your solicitor



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,344 ✭✭✭NUTLEY BOY


    This is very good advice. This is exactly the type of situation that liability insurers are there to deal with.

    Engaging in correspondence with other parties is probably a breach of policy conditions. AFAIK you are supposed to send all correspondence directly to your insurers unacknowledged for them to deal with it and that you are not to deal with it yourself.

    Going to a solicitor was probably a waste of money. The liability insurers should deal with it. They have the resources and knowledge to deal with this sort of matter.

    I don't know if it still exists but insurers used to operate a database of claimants who would be flagged up immediately for previous claims. Has GDPR killed that too ?

    On the limited information to hand I would have thought that a household insurance contract would encompass the circumstances of this claim. There are probably exclusions of claims involving dogs of certain breeds or prohibited types but that will be in the actual policy wording.

    At this stage I would be asking my insurers to confirm that they are dealing with the matter.

    Don't forget that irrespective of the merits of the case the insurers have the right to settle the claim or to contest it. Some insurers will pay up a nuisance type settlement to minimise the risks of legal costs and others will defend especially if they know the plaintiff to be dodgy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    As has been said already, PIAB don't care if this incident happened or not. They won't do any investigations etc. They are only there to assess the injury and to make an award or else issue a release to go to court.

    There is a €1050 fee payable to PIAB if you consent to them assessing the case and I'm assuming that that's the figure on the letter that you got from PIAB asking if you consent to it being assessed. It used to be €600 before 11th April 2022.

    If you don't consent to PIAB assessing the case, PIAB will issue a release for the other party to take you to court. If they do decide to do that, they'll either drop their case or they'll have to engage a solicitor and take their chances in court. Unfortunately, if they do that, you'll have to engage a solicitor to mount a defence. It could end up costing you a packet eitherways.

    And even if you win the case and have costs awarded to you, there's no guarantee that you'll actually receive any money so you could end up having to pay your own legal costs.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,260 ✭✭✭Kaisr Sose


    OP said their insurance does not cover this. I do not know if this is their thinking or they checked with them. I think the former.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,083 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Not ASAP.

    You have 30 days. If household insurance really doesn't cover it (double check with the company) then send the refusal on about day 28 (assuming two days is enough for post, allow an extra day if you think it's warranted.).

    You're in no rush.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8 kevinporter


    Thanks guys for all your responses. I received free legal advise from two very kind solicitors and was told to reply to PIAB saying i do not consent to these claims, and leave it for them to go the next route which is the courts which neither believe the claimant will do.

    Anyway, thanks again and hopefully nobody else has to go through this bs.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭GavPJ


    Hope it works out man. It would surprise you the amount of cn uts out there at the minute.

    Taxi rear ended me during the summer and he is claiming it is my fault!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 355 ✭✭delboythedub




    On this doctors letter does the date match the date of the incident. Also think that the onus of Proof lies on the other party. Have you written to this PIAB to outline your version of this incident. Were both dogs on a lead.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,354 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Do NOT under any circumstances give your version of anything to PIAB.

    Deny consent to the assessment of the claim in as few words as possible, register the letter and send it back. My guess is you'll never hear another peep. about it.

    Suggestion:

    Date

    Ref


    Dear Sirs,


    No.


    Sincerely,

    Kevin.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,344 ✭✭✭NUTLEY BOY


    I do not understand the insurance position.

    Does OP's household insurance cover this or not ? The answer to that determines how to manage the matter.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,601 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Curious how you can put an exact location on something that never happened. Was the time/place named in the letter?



  • Registered Users Posts: 83 ✭✭mrsbeebee


    Suggest you check with your home insurer to see if you are covered. Normally this sort of thing would be covered.

    Also, suggest you contact the local gardai - was this incident ever reported to them? It's very strange that someone was knocked over by a dog to the extent they sustained any sort of injury without notifying the gardai or the local dog warden.

    Check the date of the alleged incident. Were you definitely in the time and place at the time? Check the date they first received medical treatment (should be on the Form A)

    Is this person acting as a lay litigant or do they have a solicitor? You can reject PIAB assessment but if they issue proceedings, you're into costs territory and while you would hope the case would be dismissed, you can't guarantee that. If they have a solicitor, it's more likely that they would issue proceedings but if they are unrepresented they may go away.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,003 ✭✭✭Eggs For Dinner


    As above. Please check 100℅ your insurance situation before you take ANY action



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,916 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    I have pet insurance including third party liability. If the same thing happened to me & I referred it to the insurance company, my premium would be increased. So I end up paying more even if it was nothing to do with me. Also how can PIAB give 30 days to respond or they will assume that you accept the claim ? Surely they have to prove that you received the letter ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 130 ✭✭MikeCairo78


    A household policy will normally provide cover here, once the dog is not as defined by the dangerous dogs act. Also PIAB only adjudicates on award and makes zero assessment on liability. If one party doesnt consent to adjudication, then, PIAB just consents to a matter being pursued through the courts



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,198 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    My understanding is that there was an "incident" in the park but is not of the order of magnitude of what was claimed in the letter



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,064 ✭✭✭✭Seve OB


    1. why is everyone recommending to go via insurance?.... even after OP has told us what they are doing?
    2. false claim should be reported to the cops.
    3. problem with this country is that we all give out about insurance costs, but yet, here loads of you are, telling everyone that it's ok to allow someone to make a false claim and let the insurance handle it


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,676 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    If the insurance company is on cover, part of the deal is that they have the right to manage the defence of the claim. If the insured steps in, full of righteous indignation, and makes a hames of things, the insurer is entitled to disclaim cover, leaving the insured to meet the claim on his own. The whole point of having insurance is so that you don't have to defend these claims or to meet them, if successful.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,003 ✭✭✭Eggs For Dinner


    Insurers know how to deal with claims like this, both genuine and false. Ignoring the process that's underway, or trying to deal with it yourself, will end in tears. It will be too late then to ask your insurer to pick up the costs and awards. Like it or loathe it, a claim for damages has been initiated and t thinking it will go away of it's own accord is foolish to say the least.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,490 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    In post #4, the OP told us that (1) his household policy doesn't cover this situation but (2) he has informed them anyway.

    No I don't have dog insurance and looks like my home insurance doesn't cover it. I have informed them though but also said this person completely made it up.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,003 ✭✭✭Eggs For Dinner


    I have being urging the OP double check with his house insurers, as I've never seen a policy (comprehensive buildings & contents) which didn't cover liability for domestic pets, with certain exclusions such as dangerous breeds, guard dogs etc



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,676 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    He says it looks like his insurance doesn't cover it. Unless the insurer has said explicitly that the policy doesn't cover this, I wouldn't rule out the possiblity that it does.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,601 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    That's true. But "managing the defence of the claim" is not the same as "defending the insured".

    The insurance company in that situation, it out to benefit the insurance company. And they will recognise that defending a false claim has an inherent cost, and if that cost is greater than or even similar to the claim they make decide to settle, regardless of what happened. Prehaps like likely here, but common in a car accidient where both drivers have differing versions of events. The two insurers high 5 and say "splitsies" ;)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,003 ✭✭✭Eggs For Dinner


    Insurer and Insured will have a common interest in defending this claim. As with every situation involving liability, it will be down to the proofs available. The decision on whether they will settle or not will be based on their experience of probable outcome if presented in court. If it is obvious a claim is false, insurers do not cave in.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,676 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Sure. The point is, it's the insurer's call, not the insured's. If the insured engages with the matter himself, and does anything to constrain the insurer's freedom of action or otherwise disadvantage the insurer with respect to the claim, the insurer can walk away and tell the insured "you're on your own now, son".

    So, if you have insurance and might want to rely on it, refer the claim to the insurer and leave them to manage everything.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,344 ✭✭✭NUTLEY BOY


    If there is valid public liability cover available to OP and they [OP] are electing to deal with it themselves don't look to the insurer when it all goes pear shaped.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,601 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    And how is it obvious that it is false? It’s largely OPs word against the claimants. I used the example of car accidents, if one party lies about the incidents. Defending it in court can become a cost.

    obviously if the claimant is looking for a 6-figure payday defending its more viable. But low value claims quite quickly get passed out by court costs.

    Sure. But tell insurance immediately, or going it your own all the way are not the only options. He can get information on the situation before making a decision.

    Although, it seems that he has told them. So might be best to confirm if covered at this stage.



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