Russia - threadbanned users in OP

Head of Pentagon also come out today and said despite its successes Ukraine is a long way from outright military victory and taking back Crimea. Hard as it is to stomach, I am certain this war will end in a messy, uneasy negotiated settlement and the fantasies some still have of pre 2014-borders and outright defeat for the Russian criminals is just not going to happen unless there is a total collapse of the Russian regime, with no prospect of that in sight.

The Korea comparison is probably therefore quite legitimate.

I think that you are correct.

This crap again lol

If this is infact the case, then why are NATO definitively saying its a Ukrainian AA missile?

Are NATO bottling it and too afraid to hold Russia accountable?

Along 23° 55′ 19″ E in Lviv you find an airport.

Along 50° 28′ 28″ N in Kyiv you find an airport.

The polish farm is at 50° 28′ 28″ N, 23° 55′ 19″ E

The mixed coordinates theory looks credible. 

But if it was credible, NATO would gladly use it. It would be a gift to them, Poland and Ukraine. It would both gets Ukraine off the hook and makes Russia look incompetent but not deliberately attacking a NATO ally (which means they wouldn't have to invoke Article 5, but would be able to justify some further actions). It would be the absolutely perfect outcome for NATO, Poland and Ukraine.

And yet they're not claiming it. In fact, they're saying it's a Ukrainian missile, which is possibly the worst outcome for all involved.

Ukraine are not on any hook.

They are blameless. Reiterated by Poland, NATO, USA and everyone else.

Although the UK appear not to have announced a formal decision on what happened, or even mild speculation. AFAIK.

They is no logical explanation that I can think of why Zelenskyy would double down on it.

The coordinates thing is freaky, but I imagine just one of those things.

I certainly take your point about Ukraine being blameless. My "off the hook" turn of phrase was meant in the most general sense, not intending to apportion culpability. They wouldn't be firing any missiles if Russia wasn't trying to destroy them, and it is certainly great to see the unilateral support Ukraine are getting from its allies on this matter.

As someone who occasionally deals in co-ordinate systems and there are many different systems and projections, the cockup theory is entirely believable where any manual input of figures is involved. I've seen many examples of rogue data, even the omission of a simple +/-

Target 53.42797607873251, -7.929273201583614 and your missile hits Athlone. Target 53.42797607873251, 7.929273201583614 and oops, you blow up some poor suckers near Friedeburg in Germany.

Then why aren't NATO saying that is what likely happened? I mean, if we're discussing it here on Boards, it's hardly news to them.

Anyway all this gets away from the relentless attack on civilian infrastructure in Ukraine, designed to create a humanitarian crisis and drive more refugees to the EU.

We may give up on the UN to stop this, they've shown themselves to be useless in this conflict. But what can the EU, Allies, NATO etc do to stop this use of missiles? Is there not sufficient justification there now in terms of threat to both NATO states in terms of refugees and the crass disregard for civilians to intervene and tell Russia that enough is enough and that agreed airspaces will be defended from now on. Defended is the key word, the onus will then be on Russia if they choose to further engage in this way.

He could at least have left a note to explain how he manged to shoot himself five times with four different pistols.

Novaya Gazeta offers a bleak vision of Russia's post-war future, with a depleted national guard, eroded security services, thousands of demoralized, disenfranchised soldiers, and in the fall out, PMCs like Wagner seizing control of state functions. If I was a Russian elite, be it Kremlin-connected, or heading up a corporation, I'd be watching events very carefully now. The French revolutionaries' favourite method of dispatch was the guillotine, perhaps in Russia, it will be the sledgehammer. It makes for chilling reading...