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Brexit Impact on Northern Ireland

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,484 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Had the UK asked, we could have shown them how to run a proper referendum.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 43,412 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Yes, James Craig did boast that Northern Ireland was "a Protestant Parliament and a Protestant State" - not "a Protestant Parliament for a Protestant people" as Haddick-Flynn misquotes - but it was in direct response to de Valera's pretension that Ireland was "a Catholic nation."

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/not-fair-to-orangemen-1.210221

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 43,412 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    It was never supposed to be that. It was a fudge from David Cameron to placate his backbenchers.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,484 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I didn't claim any different. Just pointing out what he actually said.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,547 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I am fully aware of both.

    However, it is less fun to demonstrate it to the world. The correct quote has been provided above - and it is not different in meaning, and the Protestant control went much further than just the Government.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,143 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    That might be a good idea, but its not what the GFA provides for . The two governments don't have to agree on proposals for reunification unless a border poll has already approved reunification. Plus, per the GFA, the trigger for holding a border poll is not that the two governments should have agreed proposals; it is simply that it seems to the SoS that a border poll is likely to pass.

    Plus, if a border poll is not to be held unless and until the two government have agreed a proposal, that means a border poll doesn't get held unless the UK government already wishes to achieve reunification. And that would be contrary to the whole ethos of the GFA, which is that this is a matter for the people of NI, not for the UK government.

    So, I think the GFA contemplates events happening in this order:

    1. Rising support for reunification, reflected in opinion polls, election results, etc. Clear evidence of a majority in favour.
    2. Sec of State calls a border poll.
    3. Border poll rejects reunification: end of process. OR Border poll approves reunification (by a majority of even one vote — sorry Ian), in which case . . .
    4. UK and IRL governments must seek to agree on proposals for effecting reunification.
    5. Those proposals, when agreed, must be laid before Westminster Parliament. Barring a constitutional crisis in the UK, Westminster Parliament will certainly approve them.
    6. Proposal implemented.
    7. Reunification!

    Couple of points about this.

    First, there can be no guarantee that IRL and UK governments will actually reach agreement on proposals, and GFA doesn't deal with what happens in that event. But I think both governments will be highly motivated to reach agreement.

    Second, GFA doesn't say that proposals must be put to the Oireachtas and/or a referendum in the Republic, as well as being put before Westminster, but of course something of the kind would have to happen.

    Third, the two governments, in putting together the proposals, will know whether reunification has been approved by 50% plus 1, or by a thumping majority, and that obviously might affect the proposals that they agree. The narrower the majority in favour of reunification, the greater the importance of framing proposals that will reassure the minority, address their concerns, allay their fears, not alienate swing voters, etc. The IRL government does not want to find itself in a position of implementing the proposals some time later at a time when the majority in favour of reunification has splintered, because the actual terms of reunification are unacceptable to some.

    Fourth, one of the questions to be addressed in putting together the proposals is whether the proposals will include a second referendum or other confirmatory process in NI. If, as is quite possible, the proposals include some amendment of Bunreacht, a referendum in the Republic is necessary. Plus, GFA says that reunification is conditaional on "the consent of a majority of people, democratically expressed, in both jurisdictions". Even if the border poll counts as the consent in NI, there still has to be consent in the Republic, so there may be a referndum even if no constitutional amendment is required. And, if there's to be a referendum in the Republic when the terms of reunification are actually known, very hard (and I think very unwise) to deny a similar referendum in NI. So, odds are that the proposals will include referendums in the Republic and in NI, both of which must pass for reunification to be effected.

    So, very likely that a border poll in NI will be the first of two referendums — it will be an in-principle approval of reunification, followed by a second referendum to actually give effect to reunification on known terms. Which is why I say that winning a border poll is only the start of the work - it creates a momentum and gives a fair following wind, but the real work of framing terms for reunification which can command the support of a majority in the Republic and the support of a majority in NI only begins at that point.



  • Posts: 276 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    They didn’t ever want to run a proper referendum.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,547 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    If there is a border poll and it is agreed that unification should take place, then that is a done deal.

    However, there would have to be a detail level of the terms before it could be implemented. That much is clear.

    Obviously, the reunite side would put out a detailed list of proposals at to what a united Ireland would look like, such as government structures, the role of NI structures, like the PSNI, education structures, local authority powers, etc. Obviously, not every question could be spelt out, but much could be.

    If the border poll passes, then that useful construct - the Citizen's Assembly could be setup to propose solutions to all the issues thrown up by the poll.

    Now a referendum would be needed, but it does not have to be just one referendum as a take it or leave it result. It could be a series of questions that would outline choices, and those choices could be revisited if it is considered right to do so. Also, some of the results might be deemed advisory, with a preferendum structure - where various choices are listed with selection in order of preference.

    Once the border poll passes, then that is it. However, it never is.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,484 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The Irish government will produce a White Paper (a plan) for unification as happened in Scotland during their independence referenduim. As you say, the British will largely leave that to us and whatever Unionists take part in the consultative process leading up to that. I don't believe moderate Unionism will ignore it if it comes to a ref being called. Moderate Unionism is also pragmatic.

    It simply won't be left up in the air and there will be very little left to decide or add.

    I also wouldn't be surprised to see somebody challenge the 'consent' requirement here as we already have given approval by virtue of the aspiration clause in the Constitution.

    I think a 'second' referendum that undos the first would be hugely destabilising.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,484 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Whether they did or not, they didn't. The comparison is just an edgy insult to the Irish which partitionists like to make, similar to the 'Trumpist' tag that has become fashionable too.

    We simply don't do referendums like that.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,143 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The aspiration clause in the Constitution - Art 3.1 - itself explicitly envisages a future consent to reunification by a majority in both jurisdictions, so I don't think you can really argue that the referendum to adopt Art 3.1 constitutes the necessary consent. If it did, Art 3.1 would be differently worded. Besides, it's almost certain that reunification would required constitutional amendment - Art 3.1 itself would need rewriting or replacement, for one thing - so a referendum in the Republic would be needed.

    I take your point about an white paper in advance of any NI border poll. That might be a very good idea, but the GFA doesn't require it. And it would have the disadvantage that the the white paper would have to be prepared at a time when the level of support in NI for reunification was unknown. For the reasons already pointed out, it might be desirable to do this after the border poll, rather than before.

    The other question you have to ask is, who would prepare the white paper? You suggest that "the Irish government will produce a white paper", but the GFA says that the proposals for reunification must be agreed between Dublin and Westminster. I think that means that the white paper would have to be a joint IRL/UK production, or at the very least that the IRL government would have to get Westminster signoff on the white paper before issuing it. Either would give Westminster an effective veto over the reunification decision (by simply not agreeing to any White Paper) which is contrary to the whole point of the GFA.

    I think what the IRL government could do is (if they thought it a good idea) is issue a white paper saying "if the border poll passes, this is the framework for unification that we will propose to Westminster". (And that is pretty much the status which the Scottish government's 2014 white paper had.) But there would be no guarantee that Westminster would accept it without alteration, or indeed that the IRL government might not themselves want to modify their proposals in the light of the border poll outcome, or developments after the border poll, or representations made to them by stakeholders.

    At best, what NI voters would have before them when voting in a border poll would be a framework proposal from one side for the terms of reunification to be agreed with Westminster after the border poll.

    And actually proceeding to reunification would almost certainly require a referendum in the Republic, conducted after terms for reunification had been agreed between Dublin and Westminster.

    In that scenario, it would be all but impossible to refuse a parallel referendum in NI.

    (And why would anyone want to refuse it? The democratic legitimacy of reunification would be pretty much cast-iron if approved twice by the people of NI, once in principle and a second time in detail. Conversely, if NI only gets a referendum on the in-principle question but IRL gets a referendum on the detailed, legally effective terms of reunification, that puts a major question-mark over legitimacy, which the IRL government would very much not want. Plus "unequal" referendums like this would be constitutionally questionable, given the terms of Art 3.1.)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,484 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    A second referendum that can rescind the first is never going to work and would be incendiary. It's similar to the DUP wish for a 'supermajority'

    The UK will not be making proposals on how a UI will work (it is for the people of Ireland etc etc) so the 'plan' can only come from one source - the Irish government who will be fullfilling the constitutional aspiration to unity.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,277 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    You're missing one step there, which is consent of the Irish people. There'd probably have to be a referendum here at some point between 4 and 6.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    I had been about to make the same point: the entire conversation seems to presuppose the Republic just absorbs the North - but presumably we'd need a referendum to adjust the Constitution accommodating the new counties. And that's where the fun really begins, and the dirty tricks really wind up IMO.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,143 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    GFA says that the reunification proposals are to be agreed between IRL and UK governments. Are you repudiating the GFA, Francie? 😉

    There's no problem with a second referendum that can reverse the first - we've done that a couple of times in IRL already. It's not remotely comparable to a supermajority requirement. Plus, the GFA explicitly contemplates that there can be more than one border poll, and it's absurd to argue that a border poll is final if Francie likes the outcome but not if he doesn't.

    Only Brexiters think that the purpose of a referendum is to put some question beyond democratic review. Don't be like a Brexiter, and don't aspire to a Brexity united Irish Republic.

    As I see it, it'll be part of point 6 - proposals for reunification will include changes to be made to the Irish constitution, which will require a referendum. Or, even if there is by some miracle to be no amendment to the Irish constitution, the proposals will include a referendum in IRL anyway, to satisfy Art 3.1 of the Constitution.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,547 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I think that one should look back to the adoption of the 1936 constitution and the declaration of a republic and also the leaving of the Commonwealth.

    Is not that process similar to the border poll.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,484 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The GFA also says “it is for the people of Ireland alone, by agreement between the two parts respectively and without external impediment, to exercise their right of self-determination on the basis of consent, freely and concurrently given, North and South, to bring about a United Ireland, accepting that this right must be achieved and exercised with and subject to the agreement and consent of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland”.

    The UK government will not be making proposals on how a UI might work. I would expect them to be involved at official and consultative level as we prepare a plan though and to agree as that reaches a conclusion.

    And a second referendum is a veto. All Unionists have to do in that scenario is sit back, refuse to engage and vote down any proposals. See the problem?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,188 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    All of that was prior to the Crotty judgement in the Supreme Court, so those events are essentially null and void when it comes to relevance.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,188 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    This is extremely strange and bizarre. If the first vote passes, how will the unionists sitting back and refusing to engage result in a second referendum being defeated? The only reason a second referendum would be defeated would be if the practical arrangements are such as to give the people who voted yes first time to a milk and honey proposal reason to change their mind. The unionists who voted no the first time are irrelevant to the second vote as they won't change.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,188 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    How would a second referendum that rescinds the result of a first referendum be incendiary? If that is the case, we cannot have a border poll because a previous referendum in the 1970s rejected unification.

    Or are you suggesting that there will be threats of violence and that we should cave in to those?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,484 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Conducting a border poll withoiut an already agreed framework for unity would be akin to Brexit. That is the lesson that Brexit teaches.

    That IMO is what will happen prior to any poll.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,277 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    I think those who actively want a union, which is chiefly Sinn Fein will prefer a border poll before the details are agreed since that probably represents the best chance of it passing.

    In the absence of a detailed framework on how it will work, voters will simply project whatever their desired outcome is onto a "United Ireland".

    Practical measures that would achieve that union, such as a costs, power sharing, devolution etc. could potential swing unthinking "yes" voters into the "no" camp.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,188 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    That is why they are so afraid of a two-referendum process. It is easy to persuade people to vote for an idea without details - Brexit was the ultimate proof of that.

    The second referendum is a necessary failsafe. Effectively it is asking, are you sure, now that you know the details.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,547 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Once a border poll passes, that is it.

    Any further referendums will be concerning the details of how a united Ireland would function, not the border poll.

    No Irish Gov would put forward any referendum that could overturn a border poll that was already passed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,484 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I agree. Effectively they will be referendums in a new Ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,484 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Which is all fine and dandy, but it is SF who are loudest in calls to begin the planning and consultative process immediately.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,277 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    At a minimum you're going to need one referendum on Northern Ireland on whether to leave the UK and another in Ireland on whether to adopt the new arrangements. You could potentially have a second referendum in Northern Ireland on same. It may be wise, but not an absolute necessity.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,277 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Incorrect. The constitution states union may occur "consent of a majority of the people, democratically expressed, in both jurisdictions in the island". We have an option, not an obligation. A vote in Northern Ireland can't railroad us into it.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,277 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Calls for planning and consultation =/= a signed agreement between the British and Irish governments. Sinn Fein are many things but they're not eejits.

    Indeed, unless SF are in power themselves, they'll actively oppose any pre-agreement since any government led by Fine Gael or Fianna Fail will ensure that any agreement will be so unpalatable to voters that it would never pass.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,484 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Now you truly are passing into the realms of the bizarre. The idea that FG or FF will not wholeheartedly embrace unity when the time comes is delusional. FG are clambouring onto to bandwagon as we speak trying to outdo the others.

    Both of them will be frothing at the mouth to achieve unity. Also, the idea that it will be FF and FG who will be in power when a poll is called is looking less and less likely to many.



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