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Brexit Impact on Northern Ireland

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Comments

  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 44,265 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Doug showing his complete misunderstanding of Art 16!

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,539 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Agree, it's become a 'go to' dogwhistle now. No solutions just belligerence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,708 ✭✭✭serfboard


    Doug has lost the small ‘u’ Unionists to Alliance, so his only option is to go hardline now. Pretty pointless with the DUP/TUV already in that space.

    This means:

    more possible dilution of the Unionist vote leading to

    MON being back as First Minister designate resulting in

    another refusal by Jeffrey to go into government.

    Next time though, with their economy racing toward recession, the Tories will not be inclined to indulge the DUP any further and will come to some arrangement with the EU over the heads of the Unionists, and Stormont will be mothballed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,539 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    ‘Racing’?

    I think they are there and it’s predicted to be the longest one since records began.

    Whatever strategist in Unionism is advising them that they are on a winner with this policy needs sacking.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,156 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Mmm. I'm not so sure.

    Fact of the matter is that, if the UK were to invoke Art 16 instead of proceeding with the NIP Bill, this would be a positive as far as the EU is concerned. (A) It's not illegal. (B) It comes with requirement for intensive negotiations and a commitment to finding a solution. (C) The solution is not the replacement of the NI Protocol, but making it work. From where we are now, this would be confidence-building.

    This could break a logjam. Fairly clear that the new PM has no great interest in NI, but won't want to have a trade war with EU over it. UK's current course, if persisted in, leads to a trade war; he doesn't want that. Current course can very easily be identified with Liz Truss; these are opportune times for taking anything associated with Liz Truss out into the desert, burying in in a deep mineshaft, filling in the shaft and agreeing never to speak of it again. Problem is that Rishi doesn't have any replacement strategy to address the issue; he's not sufficiently interested in NI to have come up with one, or sufficiently knowledgeable about NI to be capable of coming up with one.

    So, a prize for the clever boy or girl who can come up with an NI strategy to replace the Lets Violate Our Treaty Obligations And Put The Kibosh On Our Reputation For Good! Bill. Doug may be competing for that prize. Hardliners can't really object since they have been calling for the invocation of Art 16 pretty much from day 1. UK government hasn't done it because it won't achieve the aim of displacing the protocol, and it would require them to engage with the EU, start talking and stop posturing. But Rishi might be open to being persuaded that now is quite a good time to stop posturing and start talking, lance the boil and get on with the project he's really interested in of turning GB into a libertarian playground.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,539 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    He can decide to start talking without pulling Art 16.

    Sunak wants the heat out of the situation (it's why he went above his SOS and kibioshed an election) to do a deal on the protocol and move on. He doesn't look to me like somebody who wants to up the ante on the hill of NI



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,156 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Yes, he can decide to start talking at any time. (In fact there are talks under way right now.) The point about invoking Art 16 is that the UK would then be committed to talking, and also committed to the object or purpose of the talks, which is the limitation or abolition of the emergency measures taken by the UK. The UK would also be committed to justifying their actions, and their objectives, by reference to "serious economic, societal or environmental difficulties that are liable to persist" by reason of the Protocol; they couldn't justify emergency measures, or a desire to replace the protocol, simply on the grounds that they had changed their minds about what they signed up to. The whole discourse would become much more limited and focussed.

    I'm not saying that this is the plan, by any means, but if Sunak did want to substantially climb down from the rather absurd position the UK has talked itself into, Art 16 might provide a framework for doing so. And as Brexiter headbangers have been demanding the invocation of Art 16 pretty much since the get-go it would be hard for them to criticise it now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,539 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    You are trying to bang a square peg into a round hole here Paregrinus.

    And ignoring the now stark fact that invoking Art 16 has a huge negative affect on diplomatic relations and discussion.

    That is why May, Johnson and Truss didn't invoke it and why it is far more unlikely Sunak will.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,156 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I probably am trying to bang a square peg into a round hole, I agree.

    But bear with me. Whatever about May, the reason Johnson and Truss didn't invoke Art 16 had nothing to do with negative effects on diplomatic relations; the steps they did take showed they cared bugger all about that. I think the reason they didn't invoke it was because, far from being the get-out-of-jail free card that Brexiter headbangers believed, it simply wasn't capable of producing the outcome that they wanted; it would lock them into a process whose end-point was very much not where they wanted to go.

    I'll say two things about invoking Art 16:

    1. If the UK ever does invoke it, it will be because either (a) the UK government is in the hands of Brexiter headbangers or of people who have bought into Brexiter headbanger delusions, or (b) the UK government has changed its views about the outcome it wants.
    2. Invoking Art 16 would be less offensive and inflammatory than what the UK is currently doing — the NIP Bill, which is blatantly and admittedly illegal. Art 16 is right there in the treaty; it's a process to which the EU has agreed for resolving issues that arise from the implementation of the protocol. If the UK government were to invoke it in good faith, that would certainly be a lot better, from the EU's point of view, than what they are doing now.

    Obviously the "in good faith" bit is not something anyone would take for granted, given the record of perfidy to date. But the only way the current mess gets unmessed is if the UK changes course in some significant way. Invoking Art 16 isn't in itself the necessary change of course, but if the UK were minded to change course then invoking Art 16 would provide a mechanism for doing this which might enable them to save some face (which the EU is generally happy to enable its negotiating counterparties to do) and also give them some temporary cover from the aforementioned brexiter headbangers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,539 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I think the reason Johnson and Truss didn't invoke it was fear of the consequences. Plenty of sabre rattling but when hardy came to hardy...'we are not going there'.

    I also don't believe Sunak's heart is in this Protocol Bill.

    All the UK need to do is engage in talks in good faith. There is no need to invoke something, the outcome of which is an unknown and may have contagion in relations with others like the US.

    It doesn't make any sense given the UK is entering a never seen before recession.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,539 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,156 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Problem is that British government has raised expectations in NI which cannot be met — they kept denouncing more and more of the NIP as fundamentally unacceptable, despite the fact that they had already accepted it. So the talks they engage in are going to lead to an outcome that will disappoint many. Point of invoking Art 16 and using that as the framework for the talks is that it creates a smokescreen, enables them to claim they are being all macho and hairy-chested, and provides some cover while they climb down.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,886 ✭✭✭rock22


    I agree that Art. 16 could be used as a smokescreen to get the UK government off the hook. But first, we must try and work out what they want . Or, more importantly, the UK government must work out what they want.

    So far it seems it has been UK policy to maintain a level of tension with the EU. For that purpose, the NIP and the DUP have been useful. We are assuming that now the UK want to reduce tension with the EU and have a better relationship. And, while on the surface that appears to be the case, it is not certain. A first step would be to stop the NI Protocol Bill, 2022. A second would be to abandon the Brexit Freedoms Bill. Both steps would reduce tensions and signal a real intention to forge a working relationship with the EU.

    I know this is very, very, farfetched but (theoretically at least), if the EU were to agree to reopen negotiations on the NI Protocol it would mean reopening negotiation on the Withdrawal agreement. In turn that could lead to both sides agreeing to nullify that agreement with the resutl that the UK would be back into the EU on the terms it left it. Agree it is all fairly farfetched and probably not legally possible now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,539 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Already, those that are leading belligerent Unionism are shouting that 'negotiations' and using flexibilities within the Protocol will not be enough.

    The UK would be causing themselves pointless grief, and losing even more stature on the world stage, only to be still at square one.

    There is a cost too for overtly siding with belligerence and with Sunak making the shapes he is making above ^ I see no political will to do that.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 31,413 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Its not far fetched, its just fundamentally impossible.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 43,422 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    The problem with this approach is the inherent instability of the Conservative party. We're on our third PM this year already. Johnson made lots of one nation noises, Truss tried to implement a Tufton Street agenda and we've no idea what Sunak is up to though he at least seems sensible for now.

    Article 16 has been presented constantly as a "Press to own the EU" button that the government just needed to man up and press. It's easier to raise tensions and stoke up the base than it is to step down and actually work on a constructive solution in collaboration with the EU.

    There is room to alter the protocol but fundamental renegotiation is a fantasy. It won't happen for several years if even that.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 884 ✭✭✭reslfj


    There is room to alter the protocol but fundamental renegotiation is a fantasy.

    The NIP is part of the WA and can't be renegotiated.

    The NIP includes the 'Joint Committee' where some problems and almost all practical problems can be negotiated and agreed.

    So HMG use the flexibility which is already there, and please stop politicize the border.

    Lars 😀



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,499 ✭✭✭yagan


    Still no sign of any Brexit benefits.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,539 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The party that championed a narrow victory for Brexit regardless of the fact NI didn't want it. now running scared of a similar result in a border poll? Allying with those in the south who want the same same thing...'democracy, but on our terms'😁




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,643 ✭✭✭✭Mr.Nice Guy


    Good discussion on BBC Talkback today with political scientist Brendan O'Leary, author of 'Making Sense of a United Ireland'. Starts at 1:04:00 here:

    He tackles the silly idea that a supermajority might be needed for a new Ireland. He also says in his view the protocol doesn't affect the GFA and he dismisses the notion that unity would be unaffordable.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,539 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,156 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The supermajority idea is a silly one, certainly in the context of NI. Can we imagine how stable NI would be if a majority voted to leave the UK but their will was denied, and NI was kept in the UK by force, against its will?

    Of course, the truth is that a slim majority in favour of reunification is going to be destabilising, whether or not reunification ensues - a slim majority on either side can obviously evaporate as events unfold and expectations or fears are or are not realised. Brexiters made the mistake of thinking that a 52:48 win meant they were home and hosed, whereas in fact it meant their real work was just beginning. Their failure ever to do that work is what has them and their country in the mess they're in. Lets not be like Brexiters, guys.

    Per the GFA, a border poll result in favour of reunification does not (regardless of the margin of victory) result in immediate or even inevitable reunification. The consequence of a vote in favour of reunification is that the Secretary of State must "lay before Parliament such proposals to give effect to that wish as may be agreed between Her Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom and the Government of Ireland".

    The real issue, then, is not the margin of victory in the poll in favour of reunification; it's coming up with concrete proposals for actually delivering unification that (a) will work, and (b) will continue to command political support from a majority in NI.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,393 ✭✭✭Grassey


    @Peregrinus Does b apply though realistically?

    As in, NI by majority to leave then does the balance of power not shift to UK/Ireland horsetrading to give effect to that wish, with NI being a minor subset of the UK gov position by then? Any proposed agreement doesn't NEED NI political support seperate (but obviously would be a barrel of problems without)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,539 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


     "lay before Parliament such proposals to give effect to that wish as may be agreed between Her Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom and the Government of Ireland".

    Which means that the 'agreement' will have been made before it is put before Parliament. And if it fails in Parliament then they modify the agreement until such time as it is 'given effect' or else the GFA will have been breached. I.E. There is no going back once a vote passes it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    I have to agree with this analysis. In order to avoid the mistakes of Brexit, it will in effect be necessary to have two referenda. The first one to determine the principle of reunification, which will include some outline of how it will work, the second one, on the practical details. People may have different views when they see the practical outcome of discussions which is what has happened post-Brexit.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,539 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    So work in another veto?

    Nobody will be going into a Border Poll without the detail of how it will work. The two governments will have made an agreement on how it will all work if there is a majority in favour.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,547 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    @Peregrinus Quote: [The supermajority idea is a silly one, certainly in the context of NI. Can we imagine how stable NI would be if a majority voted to leave the UK but their will was denied, and NI was kept in the UK by force, against its will?]

    Has the NI state been kept within the UK against the will of Ireland as a whole, as it existed prior to the formation of NI in 1921? The 1919 GE saw Sinn Fein take an overwhelming majority in that election. Areas that voted for SF were included in NI.

    The border was defined to guarantee a Protestant majority, but a viable economy, without the minority having any say in the running of the 'Protestant State for a Protestant people'.

    Supermajority is just an attempt to reinstall that idea. Is the proposer not the MP the one who got suspended for some doubtful financial matter and had a recall election to fight? That is the sort of MP that the world can do without.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 43,422 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Paisley Jr. had taken a hospitality from the government of Sri Lanka in exchange for lobbying the government if that's what you're referring to.

    The "Protestant state for a Protestant people" is a known misquote from James Craig by the way.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,539 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    What he actually said:

    .. it is undoubtedly our duty and our privilege, and always will be, to see that those appointed by us possess the most unimpeachable loyalty to the King and Constitution. That is my whole object in carrying on a Protestant Government for a Protestant people. I repeat it in this House". HOC 21st November 1934



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    No, sensible learnings from the disaster of Brexit.



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