Poor performance review and negative reference

bjarbnickixo · 29-09-2022 6:51pm #1

I'm working a sales job right now that was supposed to just tie me over for a couple of months to my next place of employment. For a few reasons, I have not been giving this current job all that it demands and my recent performance review has absolutely reflected that. My name is now being called on this civil service panel, and while I want this next job because I'm actually interested in the area, I'm afraid my negative reference from my current employer is going to prevent this from happening.

I never thought I would be so unmotivated in a job but I just walk into it into every day with a sense of dread. I accept that I've underperformed and that is ultimately on me and I can only blame myself for that. I never saw my my current role as a long term one but I feel like the irony is catching up with me because I may have to stick with it if i don't get this next gig.

My one hope is that my past references from jobs that I've worked years at are actually good and from people I used to work close with. Can anyone tell me how likely it is a prospective employer in the civil service is to dismiss me at the final stage of the clearance process because of underperformance? I think it's ran by the Public Appointments Service (PAS).

Thanks guys.

30-09-2022 4:35am

Do you need a reference from your current role? Is perfectly justifiable to not provide a reference from your current role as you “don’t want to inform your current employer you are looking elsewhere”. Also a reference from a place you have only worked a couple of months would not carry much weight assuming you have stronger references prior to this.

References are generally tricky for an employer anyway. Most companies officially will give the “x worked here from date a to date b” as expanding on that will potentially leave them open to challenge, both in the case where there is a negative reference, but also in giving a positive reference to someone who subsequently causes issues in a new role. Also, a personal reference from someone within the company does not need to be from your manager. If a reference is insisted on from your current employer, is there someone else of standing within the company who you could nominate? Again, with justification that you don’t want to let your current manager know your are actively looking for a new role as to do so may impact negatively on your current role if you are ultimately unsuccessful.

There is also the potential that your current manager could give you a glowing reference. Is far easier for them to enable the under performing employee to get a job elsewhere than to go through the painful process of managing them out

bjarbnickixo · 30-09-2022 2:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119683086#Comment_119683086

Yes, I checked and apparently the Public Appointments Service (recruiters for the civil service) require reference from the current employer. They cannot offer you a position without one. It is the last stage in the clearance process, preceded by a series of checks, i.e., garda clearance, university transcript results, etc.

I agree that not having worked there long that perhaps it may at least be viewed in conjunction with other work references. However, I truly do not know that for a fact and I do not know how PAS operates. It's interesting you say that some employers are hesitant to give out references in that way. I never knew that. In my performance review they did indicate good character and that I, at the very least, attempted tasks.

Unfortunately I have only really worked with my own section. There may be 1 person outside of my area who I am on very good terms with who may accept the reference duty, but i only worked with them a week on a project. You make a good point about my manager.

It would not be completely outside the scope of reality for my manager to vouch for me, however maybe a chat with them prior to when the time comes could be beneficial. I do not want to reveal anything too early in case it becomes a case of office politics and this getting out before I want it to.

triddles · 30-09-2022 2:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119685202#Comment_119685202

Easiest out in the world is "my company does not provide references for legal reasons , they will supply dates of employment". Ive worked in banks , insurance firms , some will only offer dates of employment.

Mrs OBumble · 01-10-2022 12:37am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119685232#Comment_119685232

PAS won't hire you, if that's all you can offer.

triddles · 03-10-2022 8:00am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119687673#Comment_119687673

False.

CramCycle · 03-10-2022 8:16am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119687673#Comment_119687673

Incorrect, you just submit the letter stating A worked from Date X to Date Y, signed by the company.

For the OP, do you have any friends in the company who will write you a personal reference? eg I am Daves manager, he was great, signed Tom. One of the lads who worked for me got one from me and he is still employed in the civil service years later.

suilegorma · 03-10-2022 8:21am

Think of it this way. If you are leaving anyway your boss might be happy just to give the standard reference as it's no skin off their nose and it means they can rehire for the role instead of trying to motivate someone whose heart isn't really in it. If it's the sort of workplace you feel dread going into anyway I'd imagine turnover is high and it wouldn't be uncommon people using it as a stop gap until they found something they are more suited to.

03-10-2022 8:34am

a confirmation of your service will suffice for PAS

Mrs OBumble · 03-10-2022 8:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119694582#Comment_119694582

I can name two people who were told by PAS that this was not sufficient, they needed to.produce an actual written reference.

notAMember · 03-10-2022 8:59am

Why do you believe there will be a negative reference? This is exceptionally rare, and I don't think I've ever seen a negative reference in writing as there are legal ramifications. A written reference will usually be confirming the dates of employment and the role.

Are you assuming there will be a negative reference based only on the performance review?

Jim_Hodge · 03-10-2022 9:02am

Way overthinking all this. They will give a reference. It may not be a gushing or effusive as it could be but it will not be a negative reference. It'll be bland and accurate as to your employment there. Relax.

CramCycle · 03-10-2022 9:23am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119694635#Comment_119694635

Sorry you misunderstood me, this is what most companies supply as a reference. It states person A has worked here from this date to this date. Maybe one or two filler lines that day nothing. This is incredibly common for various legal reasons. I know people where this has been accepted.

As others have said, they risk legal comeback if the OP loses a job due to the reference. You'd have to be an idiot to give a negative one nowadays, certainly on the record anyway.

I also know several companies who ask for a phone number as well as a written reference for this reason.

FishOnABike · 03-10-2022 9:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119694746#Comment_119694746

PAS may look for a company email address and phone number for any references you give. They did when I applied for a position through PAS.

CramCycle · 03-10-2022 10:35am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119694891#Comment_119694891

Well that makes sense to stop you just having a mate give a reference. I gave references for ex employees who I knew were good and in fact was sad to see go, others I just referred them to the secretary and company policy that we don't give personal references. Guinness are the only ones who actually followed up with me, to have an informal chat. I told them the truth, I was annoyed we had our budget tightened as they were a great worker and if I had the money I'd hold onto them. Another co worker whose lab was closing went for a CS job, and he got a reference as part of his leaving package. Boss of 20 years just said, no, we wouldn't re hire him as the lab has closed and his skills were not needed anywhere else when he was rang. He did not get the job.

skallywag · 07-10-2022 12:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119694746#Comment_119694746

Very true, a negative written reference is very rare, in fact I think I have never seen one.

As you state though, it is quite common to request a short phone call with a former supervisor, etc.

DoctorEdgeWild · 10-10-2022 4:48pm

Is it too late to perform better for your current company so that at least you 'go out' on a high? Memories are short sometimes and if you are still there for 3/4 weeks then you could put the effort in so that your reference may be more favourable if required?

When a new employer contacts me for a reference, I would VERY rarely give anything other than positive, and if I were genuinely negative about someone, I would just confirm they worked for us for X dates and leave it at that.

tinytobe · 24-10-2022 9:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119694746#Comment_119694746

Negative references are only given verbally, one HR to another HR, if they know each other.

Anything in writing, is subject to possible legal issues, if it's deemed negative.

Remember, HR is also there to avoid any legal issues, any former employees might have against the company.

Mrs OBumble · 24-10-2022 6:57pm

Negative reference can also be give from one manager to another, verbally or even without anything being said, eg

"would you hire XYZ again?"

Response: silence.

mariaalice · 24-10-2022 10:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119788376#Comment_119788376

It would be a disciplinary offense to give a verbal reference without going through HR or informing HR that you have been approached as a contact in most organisations. My husband has given verbal references and is very careful.

I am me123 · 25-10-2022 7:55pm

Hi.

Sorry to hijack the thread.

Anyone know how to approach a current employer about providing a reference? How would you phrase such a request?

Thank you.

Jim_Hodge · 25-10-2022 7:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119792871#Comment_119792871

Just formally or informally ask "could you please give me a reference as I'm....." It's quite normal and far from unusual.

bobbysands81 · 28-10-2022 2:07am

The only reference you’ll ever get from the Civil Service themselves is along those lines.

skallywag · 28-10-2022 11:37am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119789196#Comment_119789196

You can quite easily get the message across without giving a formal reference, even verbally.

I have been called umpteen times from potential new employers for team members who have reported to me in the past. In nearly every case the last question will be 'would you hire this person again' to which I give a simple yes or no answer, and leave it at that with no further elaboration. HR in my own organization (which is very large, and has a very large HR dept) are not involved at all. To be honest I would say that 95% of the time I am singing the ex employee's praises. That said, if I genuinely would not hire someone again then I will not hesitate to answer no to the final question.

mariaalice · 28-10-2022 12:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119803766#Comment_119803766

Does HR know you are doing this? because there is a fine line between a personal reference and a reference from you in your role as team lead. I presume you make it absolutely clear this is a personal reference and if they want a work reference they should go through HR. Companies are very careful about not getting themselves into a position where they will be held responsible for incorrect information. That is why it is often a disciplinary offense to give a reference without going through HR.

Jim2007 · 28-10-2022 6:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119803954#Comment_119803954

Exactly this. Large companies have very strict policies on who can speak on behalf of the company and once you stray into the area of taking such calls on the company phones, making comments on peoples performance or would you hire someone again and it is no longer a personal reference.

All it takes someone back when you are not around and it could very easily get up send up the line.

I am me123 · 28-10-2022 7:49pm

Good point haha. Thank you.

skallywag · 29-10-2022 1:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119803954#Comment_119803954

HR have no involvement at all. For the majority of people I speak on behalf of it is irrelevant anyway since they worked with me in a different company than the one which I am currently at.

Would HR be peeved if I speak about ex employees from my current company? I guess they may be, and perhaps I will get my hands slapped in the future at some point, who knows. Until that happens though it is not going to put me off speaking up for decent people who I have worked with in the past, or being quite short when it comes to someone who is to be avoided, the latter being much less frequent.

I myself would not hire someone without having a similar conversation, and I know quite a few others with a similar mentality.

29-10-2022 1:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119694635#Comment_119694635

And I never had to, for PAS, as large multinational did not provide references outside dates of service.

Mrs OBumble · 29-10-2022 1:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119807986#Comment_119807986

Same as that .

HR will literally never know. Real references never go on paper.

cezanne · 29-10-2022 2:07pm

if you have a friend in that work place give his number & name as a reference also get some headed paper before you leave, write your own reference and sign a colleagues name who has left. There are loads of ways around this you just have to be cunning & calculating,. Middle managers are spiteful little small men so dont give a manager who couldnt motivate you the chance to **** you over. Be bold set up your references & play the game its just a slave market anyway and some slaves do lateral thinking better than others. Think outside the box why should a company who did **** all to embrace and encourage you have any say in your chance to improve somewhere else. Be devious . Good luck it worked for me on several occasions but then i am a risk taker and actually took pleasure in the duplicity !

skallywag · 29-10-2022 2:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119808150#Comment_119808150

Someone with half a brain will see through your tactics in about thirty seconds.

You sound like the ideal employee.

Jim_Hodge · 29-10-2022 2:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119808150#Comment_119808150

Commit fraud in other words. That's some advice to be giving. I always followed up on references.

cezanne · 29-10-2022 3:38pm

I got a very good job by setting up my reference its called controlling the situation did good interview and then gave the references and had told them exactly what to say . i got the job and was well up to the task however my previous peevish manager didnt get the chance to shaft me and he never understood why ...... call it what you like it worked and i worked again regardless of a nasty self serving manager. Some people are naturally servile and obey every thing within an inch of their lives and some dont. So keep your judgements to yourselves and be good servile slaves you will still get the same thanks.

Jim2007 · 29-10-2022 4:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119808484#Comment_119808484

And you have no idea if you got away it or not. Just because they did not say anything, does not mean they don't know. You would not be the first employee that was tolerated while needed and the lie can always be used to kick them out when no longer needed. You'll just never know unless you become superfluous to needs, so next time you look at your servile colleagues, remember you are the one masquerade as the good little employee not them.

cezanne · 29-10-2022 5:30pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCGNVLhXqJY

Reality the modern world have a look and realise we are all in a race to nowhere but death & taxes and some futile consumerism in the middle.

Jim_Hodge · 29-10-2022 5:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119808919#Comment_119808919

You need to work less and get out more. That's a sad and misguided opinion on life. There's huge fun, love, spectacle, wonder and enjoyment to be had.

cezanne · 29-10-2022 5:42pm

there is and you are correct so why devote yourself to a job you hate with nasty people who sabotage your next mobile move? Merely i am saying a few whites lies can move you to a better place and i get the self righteous & the pointy finger from the sad **** who identify themselves by job and not their own reality and the fun there is to be had in life. Bo ulster yourself, build yourself up and use whatever it takes to get where you want to be and dont allow stagnant nasty small minded middle managers who are locked in a nowhere to give you a bad reference! Take your power and control your narrative, thats my message, dont give any one person any power over your life.

cezanne · 29-10-2022 5:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119808728#Comment_119808728

I did and when i gave my notice they offered me more money to stay so keep your self righteous opinion to yourself, my message is clear dont allow stagnant managers to sabotage your movement up, thats what they do cos they are stuck neither top not bottom no mans land. Middle managers destroy morale and the work place ask almost any work colleague..

Jim_Hodge · 29-10-2022 5:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119808950#Comment_119808950

Who says most people have a job they hate and can't get where they want to be without fraud? We don't all just identify with our jobs. We also don't all have a complex with regards to middle managers. You seem to be the one letting your perception of managers rule your thinking and enjoyment of life.

skallywag · 29-10-2022 6:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119808919#Comment_119808919

Are you 15?

mariaalice · 29-10-2022 9:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119808062#Comment_119808062

Yes they will, that's why my husband is so careful he has seen what happened to someone who gave a verbal reference that did not make the distinction between a person and a professional reference. That is why it has become protocol for all professional references to go through HR.

skallywag · 30-10-2022 10:29am

I agree that any official / company endorsed reference can only come through HR. That said, such references are generally useless when it comes to gaining any real insight into what this new potential employee is going to be like.

Perhaps it is field dependent, but in my experience it is very common to ask any promising candidate can they provide the contact of someone who they reported into in the past, and is it ok if I speak to this person. As far as I can recall myself, nobody has ever not obliged. I guess it may be getting less common these days as people get more and more afraid of saying anything, due to possible blowback. Still though, when I myself get such a call I frankly see it is a professional courtesy to someone who I have worked with in the past. As I mentioned previously, the vast majority of the time it's a positive message that I am providing. Perhaps I have been just lucky, but the bulk of those who I have worked with in my professional life have been decent people who would add benefit to any organisation, and if I can help someone out by giving my opinion that I think that is a great thing.

Once you get into the swing of it you will also notice that you do not actually have to say very much at all in order to bring the point across. You will usually very quickly after the call begins be able see what direction it is going in. For sure such discussions are also usually done in a somewhat discreet manner. Quite often the contact will give you a private number and ask you to call them out of office hours. It is also very common to open with something along the lines of 'well this is just my own opinion, and nothing else, etc.'.

So, in conclusion, I do not think that someone looking for a new position should get into the mindset that having someone who can vouch for you is no longer required these days. I do hear this more and more, but I can tell you that it is certainly not the case universally.

Flinty997 · 30-10-2022 10:47am

References are either generic ones from hr that are useless. Or done by someones friend in the company.

I don't think I've ever seen a bad one, or given a bad one.

Jim2007 · 30-10-2022 5:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119808960#Comment_119808960

Right, so you ARE there because they need you and as soon as they don't you'll be on your way. And the only one being self righteous is good self.

cezanne · 01-11-2022 2:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119812515#Comment_119812515

Can you give me next weeks lotteries numbers as you appear to have a gift of clairvoyant and my future. My future is just like eveyone elses when the company goes to the wall so do the emp[loyess whether they had good references, told the truth, licked the right ass in the end its the same journey all go down the same toilet with statute redundancy. Heres a good movie to watch with Jack Nicholson called About Schimt, it takes a thoughtful look at the value work loyalty.

BattleCorp · 02-11-2022 3:48pm

I work for the HSE. They require a reference from your current/last manager. They will speak to them and have them fill in a form.

I wouldn't worry too much. Companies are too clever to provide a bad reference nowadays.

tinytobe · 31-12-2022 4:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119824466#Comment_119824466

I find references obsolete and just another bureaucratic problem in the hiring process.

The applicant has degrees or certificates showing his/her professional qualification. And then there is a probationary period. Both should be enough in my opinion.

And yes, there are always reasons for moving on, better pay, a toxic environment and idiot boss, anything. All these reasons would only make lamentable reading in a reference, the kind nobody wants to give anyway, fearing legal issues and creative solicitors.

Amzie · 01-02-2023 3:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119685202#Comment_119685202

Can you get someone else in the company to give a reference?

Poor performance review and negative reference

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