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Recognition of surrogate child's genetic mother urgent

  • 13-10-2022 9:41pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 578 ✭✭✭


    I do understand folk wanting legal recognition in these cases.

    What I don’t understand is why they don’t just formally adopt the child as a couple, a common practice where a single parent subsequently marries.

    That would give people availing of surrogacy the legal recognition they want, without raising imponderable legal issues for other couples.



«1

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    Lawyers not wanting to be out of further work.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The issue (as I understand it based on the reporting) is there is no legal avenue for the mother to have her recognised in Irish law as the biological mother of the child.

    Adoption would not remedy this.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,469 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    how can the actual parents not be considered parents to being with, what a bizarre legal setup.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    What practical legal rights would accrue to her beyond those of an adoptive mother if she was recognised as the biological mother?

    If the answer is none, then one must question why is she pursuing his? Is it a case of a legal safeguard to the exclusion of any potential legal rights the actual biological mother may claim in the future?

    Surrogacy is fraught with ethical issues to be honest. I know the current cultural temperature in Ireland is that it is a universal good, but the fact that it is typically conducted in developing or poorer countries (and in the US, overwhelmingly economically insecure women) perhaps should give people pause for thought.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,665 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Presumably thus is really about availing of bio-family oriented inheritance tax-breaks.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    It will be interesting to see arguing what a biological woman is or is not. Will it be framed as a woman's rights issue or my body my choice ? Or the surrogate is merely a container. 🤔



  • Registered Users Posts: 195 ✭✭FoxForce5


    It's a dystopian nightmare, rent a womb. Excluding very rare altruistic surrogacy, it's just rich people wanting their cake and eat it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,034 ✭✭✭Jequ0n


    “The court was told the couple had a son in 2009 but after repeated miscarriages and failed fertility treatments they opted to use a the service of a surrogate mother in Ukraine to carry their embryos and their second child was born in 2019.”

    Just another case of pure human selfishness.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,490 ✭✭✭Montage of Feck


    Despite it being unquestioningly pushed by the media and "celebs" (ugh), the surrogacy thing just seems very off to me.

    🙈🙉🙊



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,654 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    @VillageIdiot71

    What I don’t understand is why they don’t just formally adopt the child as a couple, a common practice where a single parent subsequently marries.

    That would give people availing of surrogacy the legal recognition they want, without raising imponderable legal issues for other couples.


    Completely different situations tbh. From the RTE article in your opening post -

    The only option for a genetic mother to be legally recognised is through adoption but the Adoption Authority has said it may not consider such applications until legislation regulating surrogacy is enacted.

    Post edited by One eyed Jack on


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,735 ✭✭✭knucklehead6


    Nope. The legislation as it stands means the surrogate mother could ‘claim’ the child as her own if the father passed away, despite not having any genetic relationship



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,744 ✭✭✭marieholmfan


    Because the adoption authority are lazy and useless, all their decision result in the least possible work for them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,654 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    It’s far more reasonable to assume they don’t want another baby selling scandal landing on their doorstep.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,744 ✭✭✭marieholmfan


    Paid surrogacy is baby selling anyway. What else would you call it?


    But these women have no choice because our adoption agency has effed up (yes the language is deserved) international adoption in many countries (and they outsource the work where it is still possible) they don't care about baby selling they are just BONE IDLE!!



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,544 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Are there any? CAT Group A includes adoptive children and stepchildren.

    Its still a poor equivalent to being recognised as the parent legally.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,654 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    ‘Commercial surrogacy’? They’re not actually selling babies, they’re providing a service for which they are paid. It’s one of the reasons why Ireland has avoided any regulation in the area, because regulation means the State carries a responsibility it really, really doesn’t want, not with the historical, ethical, political and economic baggage involved in regulating surrogacy, either commercial or altruistic.

    Like @Yurt2 said earlier - surrogacy is fraught with ethical issues, but from my perspective it’s pretty simple - I have a moral objection to the concept, but I understand the necessity for regulation in order to ensure the rights of the child are upheld by the State. That’s what this case is about, and its timing isn’t coincidental either - pressure has been applied to Government to regulate and legislate for surrogacy for years now.

    In that time it’s become an even more complex area of law, because of developments in technology which can create circumstances as seen in this case where, because the genetic mother is not recognised as the child’s mother in Irish law, the child does not have the same rights and protections in Irish law as other children, and there is no legal avenue for them to remedy the situation where the discrimination is considered unfair. From the article -

    She said the situation had "now become desperate" and they needed to safeguard their son's parentage as a matter of urgency as his only legal parent is battling a life-threatening illness.

    Ms Egan said their son "is genetically 100% our child" and biologically and in every other sense a brother to their first son but they do not have the same rights as he is a legal stranger to her.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,609 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    +1 on this and I still cannot believe that the State got bounced into a whole new set of laws because the likes of Rosanna Daivdson and other 'infuencers' went to Ukraine to rent a womb and then come home to appear on TV crying that the law doesnt suit them. There was no debate whatsoever, the laws were made off the back of the crocodile tears of Instagrammers with no proper consideration.

    Wait till they find out that that rent a womb industry in poorer nations like Ukraine is run by the local mafia much in the same way that they run prostitution rings. Its womens bodies for rent so of course there is going to be organised crime groups behind it. When that story breaks we'll soon see the Instagrammers go very quiet.



  • Registered Users Posts: 791 ✭✭✭CreadanLady


    Surrogacy is usually an unethical practice. 99% of the time it will be affluent white westerners using a poor woman from a less developed country to produce a child for them.

    It is abusing someone in a vulnerable position because they might have no other option to make money.

    Will the rich white couple pay for any medical issues that arise later on after the pregnancy?

    The MFV Creadan Lady is a mussel dredger from Dunmore East.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,034 ✭✭✭Jequ0n


    Who cares about ethics? People will always be willing to buy specific services, just as others are willing to provide them.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users Posts: 10,217 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Hard cases make bad law is an adage as old as time. And applies to this case.

    We should be very wary about changing the essential basic concept that motherhood is a certainty - the woman who gives birth to a child is their biological mother. That's what goes on the birth certificate. Fatherhood is less certain. Genetic motherhood and genetic fatherhood may be provable but are different from the biological mother.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    "A biological mother is the female genetic contributor to the creation of the infant, through sexual intercourse or egg donation"

    I took the above from Wikipedia. I've never considered biological mother to be anything but the one who has the genetic link to the child.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    The biological mother is the one that birthed the child, and legally and semantically, how could it be any other way?



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,217 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Wikipedia is hardly the arbiter on such matters! Sure, you can put up any old statements there and pretend they are facts.

    In Ireland, the woman who carries the child/ children through pregnancy and gives birth to same is the biological & legal mother. And her name goes on the birth certificate. It's simple concept and rooted in common sense.



  • Registered Users Posts: 251 ✭✭boardlady


    Because 'biologically' the woman who provided the maternal genes which make up 50% of the baby, and were contained in her ovum, is the biological mother. The surrogate had the embryo - which contains 50% of the mother's genes and 50% of the father's genes - implanted in her womb which then allowed the embryo to develop to a deliverable baby. The surrogate provides nothing to the biological/genetic makeup of the baby whatsoever. Crudely put, the surrogate is simply an 'incubator' for the already fully genetically complete embryo.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I'm not sure 🤔 I've never considered biological mother to be anything but the woman who is genetically linked. Come to think of it I also consider birth mother to be in the same category. When it comes to surrogacy where the woman is a 'host' then I'd refer to her as the gestational carrier. Biological to me implies a link that can only be made due to shared biology.

    I am open-minded on it though. It's just a different way of seeing it for me.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Yet another boards thread filled with the usual level of compasion for individuals, passing judgement on people they dont know anything about. A young father is dying but you know:

    Presumably thus is really about availing of bio-family oriented inheritance tax-breaks.

    it's just rich people wanting their cake and eat it.

    Just another case of pure human selfishness.

    I despair for humanity with the tendency of individuals to judge relentlessly without knowledge



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Whatever about the very sad cirumstances of the father's health, that is not a good reason to legally overturn what a biological mother is.

    I'm not terribly familiar with this area of law, but one must wonder why she cannot become the adoptive mother of the child, which surely would accord her all relavent legal rights?

    Unless, she wants the state to recognise her as literally the child's biological mother, which just isn't the case - and ethically it would also serve to legally erase the surrogate mother and pretend as if she never existed.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 25,665 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    The hormonal soup that the baby bakes in for 9 months contributes significantly: if it didn't we could just grow genetic materials in large petri dishes.



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