Recognition of surrogate child's genetic mother urgent

VillageIdiot71

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2022/1011/1328575-surrogacy-high-court/

I do understand folk wanting legal recognition in these cases.

What I don’t understand is why they don’t just formally adopt the child as a couple, a common practice where a single parent subsequently marries.

That would give people availing of surrogacy the legal recognition they want, without raising imponderable legal issues for other couples.

xxxxxxl

Lawyers not wanting to be out of further work.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058267370/recognition-of-surrogate-childs-genetic-mother-urgent

The issue (as I understand it based on the reporting) is there is no legal avenue for the mother to have her recognised in Irish law as the biological mother of the child.

Adoption would not remedy this.

Cookie_Monster

how can the actual parents not be considered parents to being with, what a bizarre legal setup.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119742021#Comment_119742021

What practical legal rights would accrue to her beyond those of an adoptive mother if she was recognised as the biological mother?

If the answer is none, then one must question why is she pursuing his? Is it a case of a legal safeguard to the exclusion of any potential legal rights the actual biological mother may claim in the future?

Surrogacy is fraught with ethical issues to be honest. I know the current cultural temperature in Ireland is that it is a universal good, but the fact that it is typically conducted in developing or poorer countries (and in the US, overwhelmingly economically insecure women) perhaps should give people pause for thought.

Mrs OBumble

Presumably thus is really about availing of bio-family oriented inheritance tax-breaks.

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119742055#Comment_119742055

It will be interesting to see arguing what a biological woman is or is not. Will it be framed as a woman's rights issue or my body my choice ? Or the surrogate is merely a container. 🤔

FoxForce5

It's a dystopian nightmare, rent a womb. Excluding very rare altruistic surrogacy, it's just rich people wanting their cake and eat it.

Jequ0n

“The court was told the couple had a son in 2009 but after repeated miscarriages and failed fertility treatments they opted to use a the service of a surrogate mother in Ukraine to carry their embryos and their second child was born in 2019.”

Just another case of pure human selfishness.

Montage of Feck

Despite it being unquestioningly pushed by the media and "celebs" (ugh), the surrogacy thing just seems very off to me.

One eyed Jack

@VillageIdiot71

What I don’t understand is why they don’t just formally adopt the child as a couple, a common practice where a single parent subsequently marries.

That would give people availing of surrogacy the legal recognition they want, without raising imponderable legal issues for other couples.

Completely different situations tbh. From the RTE article in your opening post -

The only option for a genetic mother to be legally recognised is through adoption but the Adoption Authority has said it may not consider such applications until legislation regulating surrogacy is enacted.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119742130#Comment_119742130

Hideous. The woman as a vessel.

knucklehead6

Nope. The legislation as it stands means the surrogate mother could ‘claim’ the child as her own if the father passed away, despite not having any genetic relationship

marieholmfan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119743463#Comment_119743463

Because the adoption authority are lazy and useless, all their decision result in the least possible work for them.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119745264#Comment_119745264

It’s far more reasonable to assume they don’t want another baby selling scandal landing on their doorstep.

marieholmfan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119745280#Comment_119745280

Paid surrogacy is baby selling anyway. What else would you call it?

But these women have no choice because our adoption agency has effed up (yes the language is deserved) international adoption in many countries (and they outsource the work where it is still possible) they don't care about baby selling they are just BONE IDLE!!

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119742099#Comment_119742099

Are there any? CAT Group A includes adoptive children and stepchildren.

Its still a poor equivalent to being recognised as the parent legally.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119745395#Comment_119745395

‘Commercial surrogacy’? They’re not actually selling babies, they’re providing a service for which they are paid. It’s one of the reasons why Ireland has avoided any regulation in the area, because regulation means the State carries a responsibility it really, really doesn’t want, not with the historical, ethical, political and economic baggage involved in regulating surrogacy, either commercial or altruistic.

Like @Yurt2 said earlier - surrogacy is fraught with ethical issues, but from my perspective it’s pretty simple - I have a moral objection to the concept, but I understand the necessity for regulation in order to ensure the rights of the child are upheld by the State. That’s what this case is about, and its timing isn’t coincidental either - pressure has been applied to Government to regulate and legislate for surrogacy for years now.

In that time it’s become an even more complex area of law, because of developments in technology which can create circumstances as seen in this case where, because the genetic mother is not recognised as the child’s mother in Irish law, the child does not have the same rights and protections in Irish law as other children, and there is no legal avenue for them to remedy the situation where the discrimination is considered unfair. From the article -

She said the situation had "now become desperate" and they needed to safeguard their son's parentage as a matter of urgency as his only legal parent is battling a life-threatening illness.

Ms Egan said their son "is genetically 100% our child" and biologically and in every other sense a brother to their first son but they do not have the same rights as he is a legal stranger to her.

Muahahaha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119742055#Comment_119742055

+1 on this and I still cannot believe that the State got bounced into a whole new set of laws because the likes of Rosanna Daivdson and other 'infuencers' went to Ukraine to rent a womb and then come home to appear on TV crying that the law doesnt suit them. There was no debate whatsoever, the laws were made off the back of the crocodile tears of Instagrammers with no proper consideration.

Wait till they find out that that rent a womb industry in poorer nations like Ukraine is run by the local mafia much in the same way that they run prostitution rings. Its womens bodies for rent so of course there is going to be organised crime groups behind it. When that story breaks we'll soon see the Instagrammers go very quiet.

CreadanLady

Surrogacy is usually an unethical practice. 99% of the time it will be affluent white westerners using a poor woman from a less developed country to produce a child for them.

It is abusing someone in a vulnerable position because they might have no other option to make money.

Will the rich white couple pay for any medical issues that arise later on after the pregnancy?

Jequ0n

Who cares about ethics? People will always be willing to buy specific services, just as others are willing to provide them.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119742055#Comment_119742055

She is the actual biological mother though?

Furze99

Hard cases make bad law is an adage as old as time. And applies to this case.

We should be very wary about changing the essential basic concept that motherhood is a certainty - the woman who gives birth to a child is their biological mother. That's what goes on the birth certificate. Fatherhood is less certain. Genetic motherhood and genetic fatherhood may be provable but are different from the biological mother.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119769320#Comment_119769320

"A biological mother is the female genetic contributor to the creation of the infant, through sexual intercourse or egg donation"

I took the above from Wikipedia. I've never considered biological mother to be anything but the one who has the genetic link to the child.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119769234#Comment_119769234

The biological mother is the one that birthed the child, and legally and semantically, how could it be any other way?

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119769587#Comment_119769587

Wikipedia is hardly the arbiter on such matters! Sure, you can put up any old statements there and pretend they are facts.

In Ireland, the woman who carries the child/ children through pregnancy and gives birth to same is the biological & legal mother. And her name goes on the birth certificate. It's simple concept and rooted in common sense.

boardlady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119769878#Comment_119769878

Because 'biologically' the woman who provided the maternal genes which make up 50% of the baby, and were contained in her ovum, is the biological mother. The surrogate had the embryo - which contains 50% of the mother's genes and 50% of the father's genes - implanted in her womb which then allowed the embryo to develop to a deliverable baby. The surrogate provides nothing to the biological/genetic makeup of the baby whatsoever. Crudely put, the surrogate is simply an 'incubator' for the already fully genetically complete embryo.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119769878#Comment_119769878

I'm not sure 🤔 I've never considered biological mother to be anything but the woman who is genetically linked. Come to think of it I also consider birth mother to be in the same category. When it comes to surrogacy where the woman is a 'host' then I'd refer to her as the gestational carrier. Biological to me implies a link that can only be made due to shared biology.

I am open-minded on it though. It's just a different way of seeing it for me.

Yet another boards thread filled with the usual level of compasion for individuals, passing judgement on people they dont know anything about. A young father is dying but you know:

Presumably thus is really about availing of bio-family oriented inheritance tax-breaks.

it's just rich people wanting their cake and eat it.

Just another case of pure human selfishness.

I despair for humanity with the tendency of individuals to judge relentlessly without knowledge

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119770422#Comment_119770422

Whatever about the very sad cirumstances of the father's health, that is not a good reason to legally overturn what a biological mother is.

I'm not terribly familiar with this area of law, but one must wonder why she cannot become the adoptive mother of the child, which surely would accord her all relavent legal rights?

Unless, she wants the state to recognise her as literally the child's biological mother, which just isn't the case - and ethically it would also serve to legally erase the surrogate mother and pretend as if she never existed.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119769931#Comment_119769931

The hormonal soup that the baby bakes in for 9 months contributes significantly: if it didn't we could just grow genetic materials in large petri dishes.

boardlady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119770422#Comment_119770422

I agree with you. I think childless posters are the bulk. I'm all for the concept of surrogacy and understand only too well the pain of not being able to have the family you imagined, however, I do agree that the majority of surrogates are probably only doing so out of economic necessity rather than purely altruistic reasoning.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119770759#Comment_119770759

The hormonal soup as you call it, is responsible for the development. The embryo only exists in the first place due to the genes of the mother and father. The surrogate is put through a cocktail of drugs which effectively put her into menopause so that her reproductive system can then be started up again, as required, and manipulated to support pregnancy. I'm sure the scientific world gladly 'grow' babies in large tubes and dishes if it felt it could ethically get away with it. I'm all

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119771138#Comment_119771138

"Childless posters"

That's a pretty outrageous way of making a point, and particularly in the context of surrogacy.

Take ten and think about what you just posted.

Graces7

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119745503#Comment_119745503

Excellent post. Thank you.

mohawk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119769931#Comment_119769931

Your use of the word incubator is really quite dismissive of the process of growing new life. The mother (who one who gives birth) provides all the nutrition the growing baby needs and the baby will take it from the mothers own stores if needed, the mother will also transfer antibodies to the fetus. When the baby is born they will recognise the mothers voice and her smell. Hence, why usually the baby bonds with the mother first as she is familiar and this gives the baby comfort and security especially in those first couple weeks adjusting to the outside world.. Words like incubator don’t do justice to the process.

Surrogacy is a a real minefield ethically and there is a lot to be considered.

bluefinger

You feel for the genetic mother but at the same time it would be a complete minefield to mess around with the legal definition of a mother in this way. What would happen in future if a donor egg was used for instance? Would the 'genetic mother' then have a claim on any child?

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119773364#Comment_119773364

That's a case in point. Was there not a recent conversation around a Gay couple using a sister as a surrogate ?

UID0

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119743463#Comment_119743463

The European Court of Human Rights have made several rulings on this. The rights of the parents are not infringed in any way by the current situation where the genetic father has parentage and the genetic mother has guardianship. It does not impose any limits on the day-to-day lives of the parents. The rights of the child, however, are infringed as the long-term legal relationship with both parents does not exist. This infringement can be effectively remedied by adoption. I understand that some parents would not find this satisfactory, as they want a birth cert with their names on it, but the ECtHR have looked at it as allowing the child to develop their own identity.

The Adoption Authority are failing to act in the best interests of children by not considering applications, although I can understand the reticence to be seen as condoning "baby-buying" given historic adoption issues in this country. (I've put "baby-buying" in quotation marks as it isn't buying the baby, but buying the service of gestating a baby).

Jequ0n

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/dublin/dublin-news/heartbroken-dublin-dad-cried-the-whole-way-home-after-being-forced-to-leave-surrogate-triplets-in-kenya-42082878.html

There seem to be plenty of idiots who get taken in by the service providers.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119775928#Comment_119775928

The Adoption Authority are failing to act in the best interests of children by not considering applications, although I can understand the reticence to be seen as condoning "baby-buying" given historic adoption issues in this country. (I've put "baby-buying" in quotation marks as it isn't buying the baby, but buying the service of gestating a baby).

They’re not though, because without any kind of legal framework for surrogacy, either domestic or international, the Adoption Authority are perfectly within their right not to consider registration or applications for adoption by intending parents of children who are the product of surrogacy arrangements, either domestic or international. There was alright a case last year where the Adoption Authority were required to recognise the adoption of a child born through surrogacy in another jurisdiction, in spite of their objections on the basis of the payments involved -

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/campaigners-hail-gay-couples-wins-in-surrogacy-cases-0skgxcc6s

The decisions of the ECHR permit member states to provide for their own domestic arrangements regarding surrogacy, but regarding international surrogacy, it complicates matters somewhat that member states are obligated to provide for children born of international surrogacy arrangements, but Ireland has no legal framework for this in place at the moment, which leads to circumstances like those outlined for the family in the opening post, as well as other circumstances which people may well take for granted -

As a party to both the Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC) and the ECHR, Ireland is legally obliged to comply with at least this minimum obligation. It should be noted that the ECHR decisions have led to courts in prohibitionist States such as France and Germany adapting their jurisprudence to allow for a pathway to parentage for intending parents engaged in international surrogacy arrangements.11 Therefore, since blanket prohibition is not an option, the focus must shift from whether regulation should be pursued to what form of regulation is optimal from a children’s rights perspective. In this regard, it is worth noting that Ireland’s failure to regulate surrogacy to date has had negative consequences for Irish families who have engaged in both domestic and international surrogacy arrangements. Children and parents have been left in vulnerable legal positions for lengthy periods of time due to the failure of the Oireachtas to legislate to address their status. As noted by O’Donnell J in the Irish Supreme Court in 2014:

“The absence of legislation does not mean an absence of assisted reproduction; rather it means an absence of regulation ... it is surely most clearly and profoundly wrong from the point of children born through an unregulated process into a world where their status may be determined by happenstance, and where simple events such as registration for schools, attendance at a doctor, consent to medical treatment, acquisition of a passport and even joining sports teams may involve complications, embarrassment and the necessity for prior consultation with lawyers resulting in necessarily inconclusive advice. This Court in clear and forceful terms drew attention to the absence of regulation in its decision in Roche v Roche [in 2010] ... The need for legislation is even more urgent today.”

https://assets.gov.ie/130886/e66b52d7-9d3e-4bb4-b35d-cf67f9eea9fa.pdf

It’s not the responsibility of the Adoption Authority to clean up the State’s mess (God knows they have their hands full already with cleaning up the previous mess made by the State), and it appears that the State is taking a different approach anyway; instead of recognising intending parents through the adoption process, they’ll be recognised by a completely separate authority set up specifically for the purposes of registering and regulating surrogacy in Ireland -

https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/bill/2022/29/eng/initiated/b2922d.pdf

Only problem with the bill is that it still doesn’t include any provisions for recognition, regulation or registration of children who are the product of international surrogacy arrangements -

https://www.finegael.ie/international-surrogacy-must-form-part-of-health-ministers-bill-seery-kearney/

Dunno what they’re at, if I’m being honest 🙄

boardlady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119771340#Comment_119771340

My comment was in the context of other posters who had made perhaps unfeeling comments. It was not meant as an attack - I honestly meant that a lot of the comments were coming from those who were not in the position of understanding perhaps the heartache of wanting, and having, your own child. I meant no offence by it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794495#Comment_119794495

There is a sort of clinical-ness alright to some of the posts that don't take in to account the longing so many people have for a child and the painful journeys they embark on.

For me my feelings towards surrogacy are mixed. I know that if I was desperate to have my own child and other options had been explored to no avail, then it's likely I would consider surrogacy.

First of all I would ensure I wanted to be a mother for the right reasons. It baffles me how so many people take a 'sure we might as well' attitude towards this most enormous of roles.

I don't believe anyone has an automatic entitlement to a child. They are human beings with all that entails and as their parent you are wholly responsible for their existence.

Some questions I would ask myself were I to have a child would be: what life can I give them, do I have the capacity to place them number one in everything, am I selfless enough, will I be a good enough parent, will I love them enough.

I would never question if they could fill my inner empty spaces, how can a child enhance my life, what will it be like to be loved unconditionally and so very needed, will I have a new type of identity and be a (Gods forbid) an 'earth mother type?

Some parents do so much parading around now of their children. No moment is scared due to social media. I find it all very sad. So called influencers recording every milestone including the birth, traumatic births used to monetise accounts and documenting the awful experience of a miscarriage including crying in to a camera.

I just had a quick look at Brian Dowling's Instagram because he is one of those whose baby daughter has no privacy. There's a photo he has up of him and the little one at a family members grave. It's not particularly related to the child but Lord above, who decides "oh get the camera out I want to post a graveside pic of us".

Gobshites.

Regarding the question of what makes a biological mother I'm firmly in the camp now of it not being the gestational carrier.

lmao10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119775977#Comment_119775977

Great to see they got the money on the gofundme. The kids will be in Ireland before long.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794495#Comment_119794495

If you’ll forgive me, and I don’t mean to be rude to you, but it’s difficult to understand how you meant no offence by passing judgement on other posters who don’t share your opinion regarding surrogacy. It has nothing to do with whether or not anyone has children, and as @Yurt2 pointed out - your estimation that the bulk of people who are passing judgment on people are childless posters who don’t understand the desire to have children, is a bit… odd 😒

I’m opposed to surrogacy on the grounds that it encourages the commodification of humanity. Anyone’s desires, however strong they may be, do not overcome that obligation not to put a price on humanity. The law shouldn’t sanction any activity which violates that ethical constraint on human behaviour. We can’t determine laws in other jurisdictions, but we can determine laws in our own, and that’s why recognition of children born via surrogacy as deserving of equal protection in Irish law is necessary, without necessarily permitting surrogacy itself.

For context, if it helps your understanding - I have one child, I wanted many more, but for reasons I don’t feel it’s necessary to divulge, it didn’t happen. I could easily afford to have availed of surrogacy, one of the lads in work recently celebrated the birth of their seventh child, and that does remind me of my own desires to have had a large family, but that desire can never overcome my objections to commodifying humanity to fulfil my own desires just because I can afford to do it, and I know there are people willing to facilitate my desires, both as an altruistic endeavour, and in return for monetary compensation.

Just because someone is willing to do something, doesn’t mean the law should exist to facilitate their desire to do it either. It’s not just about creating exceptions in Irish law for people who have the means to be able to avail of surrogacy, it’s about ensuring that Irish law doesn’t encourage the commodification of humanity and pass it off as recognition of individuals autonomy, as the UN appears to have done -

https://www.genethique.org/250-womens-human-rights-organisations-call-for-surrogacy-ban-by-un/?lang=en

VillageIdiot71

Case is still ongoing. The report suggests the complexities are well appreciated - which makes the request for "equal" treatment incongruous, where the whole point is there's no way of achieving equity. https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2022/1011/1328575-surrogacy-high-court/

The Adoption Board position seems to simply be that they don't want to make adoption orders if legislation will arrive shortly afterwards, making their orders seem unnecessary. Which suggests if it was clear the legislation wasn't going to change the position applying in this case, they;d just have to deal with it.

Which still might not give people what they want - but, then, doesn't the Court have an obligation to act in the best interests of the child?

Dyr

Cried the whole way home after he went over to collect his children. Heartbroken that a company which sells babies doesnt operate from a sense of altruism if you can't pony up the cash to pay for em

I though we all decided that humans buying other humans like they were goods was not tolerated.

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119769931#Comment_119769931

When you take epigenetics into account it can't be said that the surrogate mother provides nothing to the biological/genetic makeup of the baby whatsoever.

Demonique

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119773375#Comment_119773375

Brian Dowling and his husband iirc