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Russia - threadbanned users in OP

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,515 ✭✭✭zv2


    Twitter #Ukraine, but be careful of the alternate reality people there. Watch out for the mines too.

    It looks like history is starting up again.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 29,880 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Membership "requires" nothing other than every member state agreeing. There are no rules that if met guarantee acceptance, nor requirements that are automatically disqualifying. You only have to look at Turkey's posturing over Finnish entry wrt the Kurds to see that it is a purely political question.

    Only the most perverse reading possible would suggest armed retaliation to invasion would be a disqualifying factor. You can't settle invasion by peaceful means. Unless you really think that if Russia had sent some men 1km over the border into Finland that would have automatically stopped Finnish accession to NATO.

    The reason Ukraine won't be accepted into NATO is the same reason it would not have been accepted 10 years ago or 1 year ago. It has not because of some technicality where they have a "border dispute".

    Ultimately we are agreed - they aren't going to be invited to join anytime soon but accession to NATO is more or less the very definition of realpolitik.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,132 ✭✭✭✭Francie Barrett


    I don't think people understand the magnitude of what Ukraine has in front of it. Kherson has clearly been a complete meat grinder for both sides, we've seen no signs of the Russians cracking here. If anything, they've been reinforcing the area. Even if Ukraine can push them out and take Kherson city (which I do think will happen eventually), they still have the Dniepr river between them and the Russians on the other side. If they can overcome that and want to go into Crimea, only 2 roads exist and serve as a serious choke point if Ukraine tries to enter. Then you've got the borders of the DPR/LPR which have been militarised since 2014 and are likely some of the most fortified areas in the world. There will be no support of the local population in either Crimea/DPR/LPR either as most Ukrainians will have been left it already.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,132 ✭✭✭✭Francie Barrett




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,731 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,442 ✭✭✭bad2thebone


    I've stood on a few here already, and I felt like Brian in The Life of Brian mentioning Jehovah.

    Even the sealions in the conspiracy theory forum threw in a few rocks when I was down lol I brushed myself off though.


    Then I rose again and..




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭greenpilot


    Twitter and OSINT.

    There is a tweet doing the rounds that highlights some "unusual activity" at Olenya airbase in Northern Russia. We are given the impression that something new is afoot. Here is the tweet:

    Screenshot_20221002-104448_Chrome.jpg

    However, for those who have watched RUS AF movements of Strategic bombers, such as the TU-95 "Bears" and TU-160, this is nothing new. It is from this base, Olenya, that many of the probing missions have been conducted, with regular flights sweeping down along the West Coast of Ireland, all with their transponders off.

    _78647280_russian_flights_nato_624.gif

    Of course, Ireland does not have a primary radar, so it is up to the RAF to detect and deter any Russian strategic flights along our Seaboard.

    Olenya is quite remote, in a heavily forested area, but perfectly positioned for the operation of such flights.

    Screenshot_20221002-104805_Earth.jpg Screenshot_20221002-104826_Earth.jpg

    Looking at a satellite picture taken almost a year ago, one can see even more bombers present at the base than was indicated earlier this week.

    Screenshot_20221002-104648_Earth.jpg Screenshot_20221002-104633_Earth.jpg Screenshot_20221002-104622_Earth.jpg

    Russias Airforce, while still very powerful, is not as advertised due to its training doctrine and the reluctance of Putin to commit large numbers of his valuable strategic forces to Ukraine. They are out there, Engles is full at the moment, 4 IL-76 AWACS are still on the Apron in Belarus and only in July, a flight of Blackjack were sent down to Venezuela. So why not use them? That is the big question. I have suggested why in earlier posts and it centres around their inability to fight an asymmetric war, something NATO excells at.

    Then we have Russias only operational aircraft carrier. Used with disastrous results in the Syrian conflict and dogged with technical issues, it can now be seen tied up in Novorossiya and is essentially a building site, with work on it held up due to a raft of corruption investigations in connection to its contractors.

    Screenshot_20221001-232057_Earth.jpg Screenshot_20221001-231645_Earth.jpg

    To those online warning that Russia has yet to unleash the full weight of the Airforce, I would say that this is not going to happen. The only weight we shall see referenced will be the out-of-shape pilots we have been seeing upon their arrival back to earth via parachute.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,849 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout



    Twitter can be as good or as bad as you want to be. Practically every journalist in the world is on and there are loads of subject matter experts willing to give their detailed opinions on matters. There's also no better place to follow a breaking story. At the same time, it's full of conspiracy theorists, crackpots and stooges for authoritarian regimes. So twitter itself isn't the problem but people should be careful what accounts they choose to amplify and not just promote a tweet because they hope that it is true.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,763 ✭✭✭weisses




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,132 ✭✭✭✭Francie Barrett


    No sign, I suppose. But if a Russian source admits the village is taken and there's a video from Ukraine saying it's in their hands, we can have fairly high confidence it's true.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,449 ✭✭✭nigeldaniel


    Putin is looking for his end game. That could well be the case. He is losing badly and has no real hope of victory.

    So far, at least four leaks in Russia’s Nord Stream pipelines 1 and 2 have been discovered, each at the surface resembling a boiling cauldron, the largest one kilometre across, and together spewing industrial quantities of toxic greenhouse gases into the atmosphere.

    Russian naval vessels were seen by European security officials in the area in the days prior, Western intelligence sources have said. NATO’s North Atlantic Council has described the damage as a “deliberate, reckless and irresponsible act of sabotage.”

     Russia is the most likely culprit for the sabotage, and Putin is likely trying to send a message: It’s a signal to Europe that Russia can reach beyond Ukraine’s borders. Nord Stream 2 was never operational, and Nord Stream 1 had been throttled back by Putin as Europe raced to replenish gas reserves ahead of winter. The Russian president is doing his best to hide it, but he is losing his war in Ukraine. The writing is on the wall.

    as for the new 'recruitment campaign' of farmers and lorry drivers to be sent to war.

    Independent Russian media quoting Russia’s revamped KGB, the FSB, put the total exodus even higher. They say more military-age men have fled the country since conscription – 261,000 – than have so far fought in the war – an estimated 160,000 to 190,000.

    With all those farmers being conscripted it's no wonder Putin went and asked North Korea for a workforce that apparently has not arrived.

    Dan.



  • Posts: 7,946 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    interesting article. My take on this, war is horrible (no shît Sherlock) and no matter how bad it is for the Ukrainians it’s going to be multiples bad for Russian soldiers wondering WTF they are doing in Ukraine. The Ukrainian forces will know exactly why THEY are there.

    Secondly, would the Ukrainians be better off heading towards Mariupol and blow the bridge to Crimea and cut off the Russian forces in Kherson and let them think on whether a warm POW camp was appealing rather than fighting Botox face’s war of pride.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,883 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    You might like to try https://www.bing.com/maps/ and compare it to Google, I think the satellite imagery is a bit sharper. Google's have nicer colours due to processing, but it looks like that processing has a cost.

    It looks like some 4 of those overweight pilots were swapped back in a prisoner exchange in April, or thereabouts.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,849 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout



    I strongly agree with your final point. I think going into the LDR/DPR heartlands (The line joining Luhansk and Donetsk cities that takes in Horlivka and Alchevs'k) will be like nothing we have seen so far and I suspect that they will leave that to the very end.

    As for Kherson I'd be more confident there. Yes, the front-line has not been moving much in the past few weeks but the simple fact remains that the Russians cannot fully resupply their forces and are constantly running down their resources. The more troops they add to that side the worse that problem will get. It was reported last week that they have already asked to retreat from there. If that's true they must be getting desperate. They could very well end up in a collapse/rout scenario if they persist on the west side of the river. Speaking of the river, after the Ukrainians liberate the west side they don't really need to attempt to cross it themselves if it would be too risky. They could just leave enough forces to defend the area, keep the bridge crossings destroyed, and then move units internally to the Donbass or the southern front in Zaporizhzhia.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,132 ✭✭✭✭Francie Barrett


    Seems to me that the problem with the Russian air force isn't a lack of aircraft, it's a lack of precision munitions. The video above shows a Russian plane dropping dumb bombs on Ukrainian positions around Lyman a few days back. These types of video of planes dropping such bombs and helicopters firing unguided rockets into the air are common. Russians aren't putting these craft a such risk because they want to, it's because they have to.

    It's obvious that the Russian air force strength was for propaganda. Putin invested his resources in being able to have a headline number of aircraft available that sounded impressive, but neglected to invest in the quantity of precision munitions required to equip them. All fur coat, no knickers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭HalloweenJack


    The other day a poster suggested that Russia was preparing to officially declare war and mobilise 25 million soldiers.

    Given the trouble they are having getting 'just' 300,000 in far-flung republic, surely such mass mobilisation would lead to internal protests on a far greater scale?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,883 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Over 60,000 orcs dead now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,606 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    All eyes on Kursk. Slava Ukraini.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭greenpilot


    Very good analysis from both of you. More discussion/commentry like this please!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,648 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    I'm sure they meant 2.5m soldiers, not 25m. But such a mobilisation would cause massive upheaval and disquiet in Russia (these type of mobilisation numbers would be heading towards WW2 levels). It would be so unpopular that it would almost certainly lead to civil unrest and perhaps even strikes and riots.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,641 ✭✭✭rogber


    Broad, sober and balanced article from the BBC on where things are as winter approaches. Puts a human face on things too. An interesting read for anyone interested in more than just battlefield statistics:




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭Curious_Case


    You were mistaken for another, in a succession of profiles, that seemed heavily invested in diluting the solid concensus against Putin with "two sides" and "what about" arguments. Most of them became increasingly belligerant and were threadbanned.

    As another poster said - "Zelensky has property abroad. Slaughter the innocents".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,849 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout



    I'm always intrigued by Montenegro joining NATO. They stuck around in a federation with Serbia for 14 years, right up until 2006. That means they were part of the same country when NATO were bombing Serbian territory in 1998. Not only did they go ahead and join NATO after gaining independence but now they're in the grouping of the most hawkish nations when it comes to Russia (Serbia's traditional ally). Can anyone fill me in on what that's all about? Do themselves and Serbia still get along?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Very real possibility that Ukraine will give the civilians a clear heads up to get the **** out of dodge while they can and then thoroughly soften up any stronghold with arty. Actually, I dont think a lot of the civvies will need a heads up, they'll be hightailing it to the border, they know a lot of scores are going to be settled if Ukraine take control back.

    I doubt there will be any appetite to go into Luhansk with kid gloves.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭Curious_Case


    I think the population is 145 million so a pool of 25 million is indeed conceivable although unlikely to ever be realised.



  • Posts: 2,015 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    This will have huge impact on the russian economy and future of civilian aviation




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,917 ✭✭✭GM228


    Membership "requires" nothing other than every member state agreeing.

    This is not true, there is no "fixed or rigid list of criteria for membership" other than the aspiring member must:-

    1. Demonstrate that they are in a position to further the principles of the Washington Treaty, and;

    2. Meet certain political, economic and military criteria as per the Study on NATO Enlargement.

    Don't let the "study" in the title mislead into thinking that it's some academic or scholarly article, it's not.

    So yes there is requirements for membership, the "open door" policy of NATO is not a blank cheque. Yes every member state must agree to membership, and each application is on a case by case basis, but that's subject to some conditions and every member state agreed to the Study on NATO Enlargement as being a requirement for membership, this was agreed subsequent to the 1994 Brussels Declaration, the Study on NATO Enlargement very clearly states that resolution of disputes is a deciding factor on membership.

    Chapter 2, paragraph 29 also states:-

    Chapter 2: How to ensure that enlargement contributes to the stability and security of the entire Euro-Atlantic area, as part of a broad European security architecture, and supports the objective of an undivided Europe


    D. Effects of the decision-making process on European security and stability


    29. The decision-making process on enlargement will be in accordance with the Washington Treaty. Each invitation will be decided on its own merits, case by case, and in accordance with the principles identified in this study, taking into account political and security related developments in the whole of Europe. It will be important, particularly in the meantime, not to foreclose the possibility of eventual Alliance membership for any European state in accordance with Article 10 of the Washington Treaty.

    If that's not enough even NATO themselves states the principles of the study must be followed for membership in the appropriate section of their website:-

    Aspirant countries


    Countries that have declared an interest in joining the Alliance are initially invited to engage in an intensified dialogue with NATO about their membership aspirations and related reforms.


    Aspirant countries may then be invited to participate in the MAP to prepare for potential membership and demonstrate their ability to meet the obligations and commitments of possible future membership. Participation in the MAP does not guarantee membership.


    Countries aspiring to join NATO have to demonstrate that they are in a position to further the principles of the 1949 Washington Treaty and contribute to security in the Euro-Atlantic area. They are also expected to meet certain political, economic and military criteria, which are laid out in the 1995 Study on NATO Enlargement.

    And

    Accession Process


    Once the Allies have decided to invite a country to become a member of NATO, they officially invite the country to begin accession talks with the Alliance. This is the first step in the accession process on the way to formal membership. The major steps in the process are:


    1. Accession talks with a NATO team


    These talks take place at NATO Headquarters in Brussels and bring together teams of NATO experts and representatives of the individual invitees. Their aim is to obtain formal confirmation from the invitees of their willingness and ability to meet the political, legal and military obligations and commitments of NATO membership, as laid out in the Washington Treaty and in the Study on NATO Enlargement.


    The talks take place in two sessions with each invitee. In the first session, political and defence or military issues are discussed, essentially providing the opportunity to establish that the preconditions for membership have been met. The second session is more technical and includes discussion of resources, security, and legal issues as well as the contribution of each new member country to NATO’s common budget. This is determined on a proportional basis, according to the size of their economies in relation to those of other Alliance member countries.


    Invitees are also required to implement measures to ensure the protection of NATO classified information, and prepare their security and intelligence services to work with the NATO Office of Security.


    The end product of these discussions is a timetable to be submitted by each invitee for the completion of necessary reforms, which may continue even after these countries have become NATO members.

    As you can see it's pretty clear there are rules for acceptance, one of those is accepting the political, economic and military criteria of the Study on NATO Enlargement.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭Hobgoblin11


    BLOODY LEGACY Cancer-stricken Putin’s body language ‘reveals he’s in crippling pain’ – as despot rushes to cement his place in history


    Dundalk, Co. Louth



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,288 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Yep and like I was saying earlier IMHO that kneejerk decision by Russia was one of their stupidest mistakes - and there have been a few - in this whole conflict. It fecks their civil aviation, but it also has far reaching impacts across the board. They can wave goodbye to any international leasing, investment, insurance and accreditation for the foreseeable.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,222 ✭✭✭✭briany


    Cancer thing has been claimed again and again. I certainly hope he has terminal cancer and that it is causing him great suffering, because that's all he deserves at this point. He's the epitome of 'hope you die roaring'. However, it's all immaterial to what the Ukrainian forces and NATO have to do and the threat that faces them right now.



This discussion has been closed.
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