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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Administrators Posts: 56,516 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    I am saying that when you look at this objectively, the cost / benefit ratio does not stack up.

    We are **** all over our league for some games against Currie Cup teams. If all we want to achieve here is to see how they do listening to Irish coaches and playing as a team then there is absolutely no need whatsoever to go on a 3 week junket to South Africa.



  • Administrators Posts: 56,516 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    I have to admit, I do find it hard to keep up with the ever changing view on what is important and what isn't.

    It seems to vary from "we can't pick players based on URC games because those games aren't high enough quality to show us anything", to "it doesn't actually matter what standard the opposition is at all".

    No doubt come November we'll be back to the former viewpoint.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,779 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    We can’t possibly know if the cost benefit stacks up because we don’t know what the cost is going to be and we don’t know what the benefit is going to be because we know almost nothing about who will be going and who will be available to the provinces in their absence. You’re making a judgement in the absence of information, not in the presence of it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,779 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    How about we look at a possible squad ourselves? 

    Loosehead:

    Loughman, Ed Byrne, Milne

    The first 2 are guys they want to consider as being in or around the RWC squad. The latter is an upcoming player who the provinces won’t miss.

     

    Hooker:

    McKee, Barron, McCormick

    We’re pretty well set at hooker with Kelleher, Sheehan, Herring and Heffernan. We might as well take a bunch of promising young lads.

     

    Tighthead:

    TOT, Clarkson, Abdaladze

    We aren’t blessed with loads of options here. I don’t see Moore coming in out of the cold at this stage. TOT is about the only realistic option behind Furlong and Bealham at the moment. Clarkson and Abdaladze might leave Leinster a little tight there but I’m not sure who else could be in the frame. Maybe McGuire from the U20s?

     

    Lock:

    Treadwell, McCarthy, Molony, Whycherley

    With Henderson, Beirne, Ryan and Baird having had plenty of time with the squad this group probably makes sense in the short to medium term.

     

    Back Row:

    Prendergast, Soroka, Kendellan, Penny, Deegan, Boyle

    We’re fairly well sorted at back row with Doris, VDF, Conan, POM and Timoney all looking good. Connors is coming back to fitness and Coombes is injured. Hodnett would be another option for the squad.

     

    Scrum Half:

    Doak, Blade

    Casey has had plenty of time in camp and probably doesn’t need to travel for this. And like Moore, I don’t see McGrath coming in from the cold either. With JGP, Murray and Casey we are reasonably well covered here.

     

    Out Half:

    H Byrne, Frawley

    Harry Byrne has been with the squad plenty, but his injury profile and our issues at 10 mean they’ll probably want to work with him a bit more. And Frawleys performances in NZ may have him in the frame for 10 as well. I don’t see Healy going, but Crowley may be in the running too.


    Centre:

    Tom Daly, Moore, Osbourne, Postlethwaite

    We’re in decent shape at centre so the need isn’t huge here. Daly was in last summer, Moore can cover multiple positions and has looked good, Osbourne has been excellent at Leinster a few times now and Postlethwaite could be worth a look after the U20s too.

     

    Back Three:

    Balacoune, JOB, Lyttle, Campbell

    With Lowe, Hansen, Conway, Earls, Keenan, Larmour and Lowry we have decent cover in the back three. Throw in Stockdale and those are decent options. Like Harry Byrne, I’d say the coaches would like time with Balacoune.

     

    So who does that leave the provinces with then? If the internationals are available (and I’m not up to speed on injury updates):

     

    Leinster 23:

    Porter, Kelleher, Furlong, Ryan, Jenkins, Doris, VDF, Conan

    JGP, Sexton, Lowe, Henshaw, Ringrose, Larmour, Keenan

    Sheehan, Healy, Ala’alatoa, Baird, Ruddock, McGrath, R Byrne, TOB

     

    Munster 23:

    Kilcoyne, Scannell, Archer, Beirne, Kleyn, POM, JOD, Hodnett

    Murray, Carbery, Zebo, Farrell, Fekitoa, Earls, Haley

    Barron, J Whycherley, Knox, Ahern, JOS, Casey, Healy, Daly

     

    Ulster 23:

    Warwick, Herring, Moore, O’Connor, Henderson, Reidy, Rea, Timoney

    Cooney, Burns, Gilroy, McCloskey, Hume, McIlroy, Lowry

    Andrew, EOS, Milasinovich, Carter, Murphy, Shanahan, Madigan, Moxham

     

    Connacht 23:

    Buckley, Heffernan, Bealham, Murphy, Thornbury, Masterson, Oliver, Butler

    Marmion, Carty, Hansen, Aki, Farrell, A Byrne, TOH

    Tierney-Martin, Dooley, Aungier, Murray, Jennings, Reilly, Hawkshaw, Wooton


    EDIT: Left out my centres.



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,289 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Italy are doing the same as us, from last week in sept to 2nd week in october.

    so leinster v benetton, munster v zebre, ulster v leinster, connacht v munster may all be effected, but equally between the sides



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,779 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    I just read one of the article in the 42 on it and it’s saying there will be a number of guys from the last couple of years of U20s who will be going too. It also says that the internationals will be available to the provinces. There is a real chance that this won’t be the big blow to the provinces and the URC that some seem to think.

    Of course there’s also still the chance that it will…..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Are you being deliberately obtuse by conflating two totally separate arguments. Or do you genuinely not get they’re not relevant to each other? I’m not sure.

    This has absolutely nothing to do with selection criteria. You are tying to conflate the relevance of playing for your province against Cheetahs as a reason for selection. With playing within the Irish systems for experience against Cheetahs for those who have already met the selection criteria.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    well i think the win/its significance over NZ has been reframed, given how poor they have been.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    ah he´s got you there. they are completely relevant lol. you´re just moving the goalposts.

    Its often what people say. oh we can´t juddge on URC or the weak NOV games etc etc. whats the difference here?

    its a nonsense tour. lets call it what it is. AF won´t even be there. not everything the IRFU do has to be applauded on this forum.

    Having a fringe player playing well here, learning systems will have absolutely no bearing on the World Cup. its basically the equivalant of playing Bayonne unde EOS. ill concieved and pointless. People are just incapable of criticising the bestest/smartest stystem in the World ©



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,970 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    One other angle is that it could be good experience of an away tournament for the coaches.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,209 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    Pages of criticism of this tour and bang straight in with people are unable to criticise AF or the irfu.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,779 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    The more we seem to be hearing about this and the Italian tour, the more it looks like a tour for guys aged 18-22 more than anyone else. I’m sure there’ll be a few older heads in there, but it doesn’t look like we’ll be losing 20+ guys who would otherwise be playing in the URC or anything like that. Hopefully that’s the case anyway.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,940 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    In that case, I look forward to future proclamations of death blows to Irish rugby…. Welcome back.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,996 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    J think this is a great opportunity for the guys called up. It will cause some disruption to the provinces but that's always the case when internationals are called away.

    The squad will get a real sense of what it's like to be in Ireland camp as a main player (not a fringe player or golding tackle bags) and what the requirements are to make it at that level.

    It's bound to attract whinging but it's ultimately a very good idea and proactive player development by Ferrell. I hope it gives those emerging players a boost and helps them progress for the rest of the season when they return.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,940 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    You’ve admittedly yourself it’ll cause disruption to the provinces. Pointing that out isn’t whinging.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭TRC10


    The squad will get a real sense of what it's like to be in Ireland camp as a main player (not a fringe player or golding tackle bags) and what the requirements are to make it at that level.

    They won't though, because they'll be playing against sub-URC standard teams who they'll each probably put 50 points on. They'll learn nothing about the requirements to make it at the top level playing against that standard of opposition. If it's just about having them in camp, why bother taking them to South Africa? Just get them into camp here and have them play AIL teams.

    If they could have organised a 3 test series against an "Emerging Springboks" or "South Africa A" team, that would have been far more beneficial.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 17,553 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Given the nature of the SA teams in question I don't think it's beyond the bounds of possibility that SA could release some "emerging" players from their URC panels to turn out in these games.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭Must love hardship


    I think it a great idea.. strange that AF might not be going himself. But great experience for everyone else coaches, physios, analysts and players involved..

    Hopefully they might even be able to revive some of the wolfhound games, even with just the other URC nations during the 6 nations.. especially if the u20 tournament is not played at the same time as the senior 6 nations



  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,935 Mod ✭✭✭✭icdg


    Is it though? Maybe if it was the Golden Lions, Western Province, and Blue Bulls they were playing - ie the Currie Cup counterparts of the URC sides. Wouldn’t this be like saying that if an Emerging Springboks team was coming here to play Munster “A” and Leinster “A” players would be sent from the senior Connacht and Ulster sides to bolster other provinces “A” teams?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,877 ✭✭✭Dave_The_Sheep


    I honestly don't see the huge problem. Sh*tting on the league has practically been a full time job around here for a long while now.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,970 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    It'll be a 35-man squad according to the official IRFU announcement. Or "35-player" was the wording that was actually used. Maybe some women will make the cut. Personally, I think that's unlikely, though.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,996 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Pointing it out is grand, whinging about it as ot it invalidates the point of the tour seems pretty cool around here though.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,996 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Ah, sure. It could be better if they had a different opposition. But why let the perfect be thr enemy of the good?

    Going abroad and playing unfamiliar opposition gives it a different feel to playing very familiar AIL teams. As core tour players they'll be working as the main men with coaches, doing the analysis, forming leadership groups, working on strategy, managing the referee and not looking to Jonny or POM to make the decisions and change tactics on the field during the game.

    This is a solution to the constant referain "when will the young lads get a chance to play and improve". If you can find a lot to whinge about in all that, then I don't know what to tell you.



  • Administrators Posts: 56,516 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    This is not a solution to the constant refrain of "when will the young lads get a chance to play and improve". It is very weird that people think this.

    Why people think minutes against Currie cup teams is good prep for test rugby is beyond me.

    They are flying to South Africa to play teams that are worse than the teams they play week in, week out for their club. But apparently, because they're going to be wearing a green jersey and staying in a hotel this is going to be super valuable.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,027 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    The young lads get a chance to be front and centre with the coaches, rather than holding tackle bags and being the 'other guys' in training drills.

    That's good for them and even if the coaches find two or three guys who can rise up the pecking order, that would be an OK outcome.

    Whether it's worth trekking all the way to SA and denuding the provinces, I'm not sure, but since it's happening regardless, might as well take some positives from it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    But AF isn´t even going?

    the only way this will be in any way interesting is if the true wodnerkids are picked. you´re talking way left field picks, even guys like Edogbo or Okeke, Campbell say. Guys like Penny, Ahern and the others.with a few of the maori dirt trackers thrown in to test their leadership in a youngish group.

    if its the same team as the Maoris then its just going to disrupt massively and Ire will learn nothing. i mean i know the latter is most likely.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,996 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    It's not just playing the teams or flying to South Africa. It's the fact that these guys will be building working relationships with the Ireland staff, traveling to do a tour, being core and leadership team members in the match week, working on strategy and analysis, making decisions as core player during the game.

    You can pick any single element of that and say you don't get why anyone would think it's good prep. But how you can look at the whole package and not conclude it's good prep is very strange. And the conclusion that you think it's just about wearing a green jersey (surely a minor part of the whole thing) is a silly strawman.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    Andy Farrell isn´t going. so its a misnomer to be saying its about working with staff. the head coach won´t be here, and the buck stops with him. so it can´t be about working with staff etc.

    some of you guys will praise anything the IRFU do. you can´t polish a turd. this tour is a dud just accept that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,996 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Ah right. I thought AF wasn't going but I didn't realise none of the regular staff were going. Who is going instead?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    not sure if thats rhetorical, yes the regular staff is going. which is something. But AF is the main man and the fact he won´t be there (for whatever reasons) just makes the claim that its about working with people less valid imo.



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