Questions on Solar PV Self Install: Meter running backwards

toolshead · 25-01-2022 3:20pm #1

I have finished off a solar PV self install. Its only a 2kW install so I don't plan on selling any of the power back to the grid. I will enable it on soon.

I have one of the old meters. I have seen online where these have ran backwards when there is an excess being generated (see "Electricity meter running backwards due to energy produced by Solar PV panels in Wexford, Ireland" video on youtube).

Keeping in mind that the meter runs backwards at the same rate that it goes forward, does this mean that in effect, you are selling the power back to the grid at the same rate that you are purchasing it at?

Secondly, do I have to notify Eirgird that I have a PV install?

Thirdly, if I dont, and the meter guy sees the PV stickers and PV safety switch that I have to place around the meter, could this cause a problem? If so, what?

KCross · 25-01-2022 4:11pm

Technically you have to tell them you have connected your system to the grid via their NC6 form.

They may or may not then come out and swap out your meter. Once you send the NC6 to them you are covered.

and yes, you are exporting and effectively getting paid day rate for it if the meter is going backwards. That won’t happen if they swap your meter.

graememk · 25-01-2022 4:33pm

& its ESB Networks not Eirgrid, And your meant to have the NC6 form filled out when you put solar in.

toolshead · 25-01-2022 11:39pm

Good information here, cheers.

So I will need to befriend an electrician to:

a) add their name to the NC6 form for sending to whatever the ESB are called now

b) get them to inspect, test and sign off on the installation later on for my own piece of mind and insurance reasons.

Anyone have any experience with getting an Electrician to give the install a once over? Will any certified electrician do, how much roughly would it cost, etc?

Why would anyone with solar want to upgrade their old dial meter to the new smart meter, if, in effect, they get a better export rate with the older meters? Especially when the ESB charge you for the upgrade. There is no monitoring benefit either as the inverter will do that for you anyway.

Jonathan · 25-01-2022 11:44pm

ESBN will need to change the meter as it becomes a revenue protection issue. You effectively have net metering which is not offered here in Ireland.

Good luck finding an electrician to certify. Legally, only a REC can add a new circuit to a consumer unit.

https://safeelectric.ie/help-advice/controlled-restricted-electrical-works/

KCross · 25-01-2022 11:45pm

Why would anyone with solar want to upgrade their old dial meter to the new smart meter, if, in effect, they get a better export rate with the older meters?

they wouldn’t! 😉

Especially when the ESB charge you for the upgrade.

the meter change is free.

SouthWesterly · 26-01-2022 12:30am

Have you photos of the set up?

toolshead · 26-01-2022 11:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118533452#Comment_118533452

I will make a thread with photos and a description once the final bits are done. I know Ive got decent information from this forum, so it will be good to try and give some back.

toolshead · 26-01-2022 11:31am

Sound. Since its only a 2kW install, I don't plan on selling any of the power back to the grid. From this thread and from reading here: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2057989174/diy-solar-pv-nc6-form-and-other-paper-work it looks like I just need to fill out the nc6 form, put in electricians name, add the inverters certificate and send it off to ESBN. They will ring me a day or two later asking me if I want a free smart meter upgrade, where I can tell them that I am not. Its not compulsory, and I can pay for the install in future if needed. sseairtricity.com/ie/home/help-centre/smart-metering/are-smart-meters-compulsory/ .

Hopefully then, when the meter reader fella comes around, he wont have an issue with the AC cut-off switch and safety stickers for solar near the meter.

irishchris · 26-01-2022 11:52am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118533280#Comment_118533280

I know a few here like to say good luck getting an electrician to sign off but its not a major issue. I rang a local reci electrician who came and out hooked it up to comsumer unit, had a chat about solar and only charged 50e as was simple connection of a 20amp breaker. A family member got a different electrician to do theirs and no issue other than was 100e to connect up. Looking forward to seeing your thread of the install. was it ground mounted timber/metal or roof? just cutting some trees back here to start ground mount to add another 7x380w array to my secondary inverter

KCross · 26-01-2022 1:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118534318#Comment_118534318

I just need to fill out the nc6 form, put in electricians name, add the inverters certificate and send it off to ESBN. They will ring me a day or two later asking me if I want a free smart meter upgrade, where I can tell them that I am not. Its not compulsory,

What might happen though is that they will force you to have a modern digital meter since you now have Solar and are feeding back. You have no specific right to spin your meter backwards. When you fill in the NC6 they will have your MPRN and know what type of meter you have. They may very well come out and swap the meter whether you like it or not. All you can do is cross your fingers that the bean counters in ESB dont action it.

They cant force a smart meter on you, but thats a different topic.

yankinlk · 29-01-2022 8:39pm

I think you are kinda making a big deal out of tbh not much. With only a 2Kw system - will it cover your actual usage? If your usage is realy small - then you arent paying much for electricity. If your usage is high - then you will be using a lot of grid at full whack when the meter isnt spinning backwards.

Jayo2011 · 03-02-2022 8:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118551318#Comment_118551318

I'm currently in process of having a 7kw system installed by a registered installer under the seai scheme. I have a rural meter which Flogas have managed to extort money from me over past couple of years. I've seen unit rate jump from 16c to 32c a unit in under 12 months.

Am I to understand if I refuse a smart meter, at times when I am generating surplus electricity, my old meter will run backwards effectively meaning Flogas potentially owes me credit? Does the spinning backwards conundrum only happen with certain meters or all that arent smart meters? Tis a bit rich of the ESB to indirectly charge the customer for a smart meter whether they want it or not. Am I correct in thinking there are no benefits for a smart meter, other than saving energy companies the expense of reading your meter?

A solar system should give the same live usage as a smart meter which appears to be their only consumer selling point

yankinlk · 03-02-2022 9:36pm

@Jayo2011 I did see that Flogas were incredibly high in charges - bonkers.ie is a great resource for comparing rates!

There are other threads on the FIT here - which is the method by which providers will eventually pay a rate back to consumers that export. Its not likely to be a great rate (im a pessimist here) but we are still waiting to find out how much it will be.

They have said that a Smart Meter is required to get any FIT payback. The other advantage of a SMart Meter is the conveinence of NOT having to provide a monthly reading.

One thing to note - many here have found that it is NOT a requirement to take a Smart Tariff (which are not as cheap as 24 hour or Night Rate tariffs). You can get a Smart Meter and still ask to be put on a "normal" tariff. We expect that everyone will be forced to take a Smart Meter eventually.

Apparently it is only really old meters that spin backwards - I posted a photo of an older meter with a "cog" icon. This icon should indicate that the meter - while old and analogue - cannot actually spin backwards. My old meter used to stop when exporting - but not go backwards completely.

Ubbquittious · 03-02-2022 9:44pm

I have one that spins backwards. Only .6 of a kW installed so quite rare that it happens

Jayo2011 · 04-02-2022 12:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118578138#Comment_118578138

Likes of bonkers or switcher dont read the small print in contracts - a hard lesson I learned. Last year i used switcher to find me the cheapest tariff in the country - Flogas. By this time last year they had already given me 2 hikes. When I complained quoting consumer law - both parties must accept changes to contracts ie tariff changes, They were very fast to point out my tariff was based on a 30% off the standard contract, which in itself had variable rate hidden clause. If I wanted to leave, they were doing nothing illegal and I would have to pay an additional early release penalty. They were very cocky about this, hence I want to reverse the tables and start charging them for my connection. As one of them quoted to me - "if you weren't happy about the rates, you didnt have to use the electricity". They don't have to accept my surplus electricity if they are unhappy with the consequential impact on my bills.

Regarding the benefits of smart meters - no need to be ringing in meter readings, I think providers will find that much of rural Ireland reside in 5g blackspots. There will be far more people being forced to ring in readings once smart meters get installed. Not sure if my meter is analog or not, if it is I'll be considering installing an analog meter when my solar gets installed. They only cost approx 20 quid secondhand.

they will no doubt close all these loopholes by refusing to accept customers who dont have smart meters installed, but this will take a minimum of 2 years until the ESB has most of the country supplied with one. Electricity in this country is very corrupt, as is our energy regulator. He should be investigated for corruption. Meanwhile be nice to play them at their own game for a bit

graememk · 04-02-2022 2:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118580601#Comment_118580601

Yeah.. I don't think you can change your own meter back to analogue meter. Its the ESBN property, not yours.. also seals, actual meter serial number etc etc.

Also smart meters don't need 5G, Its a minuscule about of data, could run on GPRS if that even exists now, but as long as your phone has a signal, it will work. (and they have sims (esims?) that aren't even tied to a network so they can pick up and use whatever network they want.

bullit_dodger · 04-02-2022 8:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118581240#Comment_118581240

I can't remember, but yeah, I don't think they use 5G.

2.5G more like.

Ubbquittious · 06-02-2022 12:16am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118582902#Comment_118582902

There is a network called Sigfox thats used for a lot of this kind of stuff. Only uses a tiny bit of energy to send a tiny bit of data but subscription rates per unit are quite low. I made a solar charge controller that uses this to report how much its generating

bullit_dodger · 06-02-2022 2:39pm

It's a UK site, but I'd assume a similar situation here in Ireland

Technical information on Smart Meters: Smart Metering - The full story

Specifically.....

SMETS 1

Most of these communicate with your supplier through the 2G/2.5G mobile network

As I recall the old 2.5G was indeed GPRS as graememk mentioned. Perhaps the new smart meters use Sigfox? Not sure, I don't know enough about it sadly. In any case, 5G coverage (or lack of) won't be an issue as smart meters don't use 5G.

irishchris · 07-02-2022 10:03am

Uk are on the verge of turning 2g & 3g networks off and have asked for regulator approval. Running calls,data etc over 4g/5g makes sense from cost perspective for the networks but problem is all the smart meters rolled out in UK will now become redundant unless these plans get rolled back which seem unlikely. Can only see Ireland going the same direction in years to come and back to dumb smart meters that need replacing

Ubbquittious · 08-02-2022 7:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118593745#Comment_118593745

DOB will get a juicy contract to replace them all dont worry. The cost of which will be rolled into the PSO levy or standing charges

Ubbquittious · 09-04-2022 1:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118590398#Comment_118590398

The Irish Government /RTE partially owns the sigfox network in Ireland. I wonder what their plans are for it

https://sigfox.ie/about-us/#

thewiseowl12 · 18-08-2022 9:54pm

Sorry to resurrect this thread but on the same topic.

My electricity meter is an old one and it is internal within the house, normally I send in the meter readings as I'm never here when the meter reader calls.

I'm having solar panels installed, my current usage is quite low at 1500kwh last year (small house, all led bulbs, combi boiler and gas for cooking) and the expected generating ability of the panels is approx 2200kwh per year.

Since my meter is old I expect that it will run backwards as a result.

What are the implications of this in the sense that I do not have to switch to a smart meter I believe - I don't expect that the provider will pay me for the surplus (which is fair enough) but is there anything they can make me do? Like charge me for estimated bills? I'm presuming the lower readings will also be an issue.

Thanks

con747 · 18-08-2022 10:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119491389#Comment_119491389

What most including myself do is add 1 unit to each bill when submitting it so it doesn't open the can of worms of a below last reading mess. Nobody has definitely answered the question on multiple forums I have asked on. You should get the estimated FIT based on the size of your inverter and prolong the replacing of your meter as long as you can. If you REFUSE a smart meter then they will not pay you the FIT.

bullit_dodger · 18-08-2022 10:16pm

It's worth mentioning that not all the "old" meters are meters which run backwards. Some of the newer (old) meters have a little rachet on the dial which physically stops it from turning in reverse. Couldn't find a picture of one on the web, but the symbol looks something like.....

If that's on the face of the meter, then it won't run backwards.

thewiseowl12 · 18-08-2022 10:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119491494#Comment_119491494

Thanks for the insight - couldn't quite see the ratchet you mention but the meter is dated 1975? I'm presuming it means its sufficiently old!

DC999 · 19-08-2022 12:13am

Mine is 1967 and run backwards. Tis a thing of beauty :)

webels · 20-08-2022 8:14am

You answered a question for me @bullit_dodger, its on mine.

bullit_dodger · 20-08-2022 11:29am

Thanks for that. Saved that piccie as I just _could not_ find one on the web. is there a date on that out of curiousity?

webels · 20-08-2022 12:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119497094#Comment_119497094

I'll have to check next week.

briancoolcat · 24-08-2022 12:54pm

Hi all I have a 3.5 kw system installed a couple of weeks now and my meter has been holding its own since installation. Same reading on it roughly. That is it spins backwards when I am exporting and holds steady or moves forwards when importing and panels are not generating enough. I have Eddi diverter and no battery and am very happy with the setup. My meter is dated 1970 and definitely spins backwards and I have requested no installation of a smart meter. I will only have used about 70 units in my next two monthly reading which will be the lowest bill by far that I have ever got. Will the ESB force a newer analogue meter on me and if so should I get a day night meter or would I be better off getting a smart meter and staying on a 24 hour rate? I'm just thinking ahead so that they will know how much I am sending back to the grid in the better months. Thanks.

ELM327 · 24-08-2022 1:05pm

If you have an inside house meter and you have a meter that goes backwards, for the love of god do nothing. They will never be able to change it.

briancoolcat · 24-08-2022 3:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119514898#Comment_119514898

Unfortunately my meter is in a wall unit on outside of house so I'm banjaxed if they come and change it when no one is there.

bullit_dodger · 24-08-2022 3:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119515752#Comment_119515752

I think they have to tell you that they are changing it with some advanced notice. You can refuse I think (if they are swapping you to a smart meter).....at least temporarily, but at some stage (2023-2024) we'll all have the smart meters.

slave1 · 25-08-2022 2:23am

Smart meters can be refused, no timeline on when you must accept them, covered in Dail Q&A

graememk · 25-08-2022 8:35am

But they could change it to a standard digital one that doesnt go back

briancoolcat · 25-08-2022 11:29am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119518784#Comment_119518784

Ok so if they change me to a standard digital meter that doesn't go back where will that leave me? Will that meter be able to measure how much I am sending back to the grid and will I get credit in the next bill? Also I am currently on a standard 24 hour tariff with Electric Ireland so I presume I will just stay on that tariff unless I request a change? I will hang on to my backwards spinning meter as long as possible but I reckon Electric Ireland will push me as a priority for a meter change as soon as I send in my next reading.

KCross · 25-08-2022 11:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119519459#Comment_119519459

If you get a standard digital meter it wont measure export so you wont get paid for export UNLESS you qualify for the "deemed export". Since you are on a 24hr tariff you do qualify for a smart meter and if you refuse the installation of that meter then you wont qualify for FiT at all.

If you switched to a d/n tariff you would qualify for the deemed export but you'd have to get a standard digital meter for that. That will keep the smart meter out for another while but maybe a d/n tariff doesn't suit you.

Your best bet is to hang on to the meter you have and dont rock the boat. You dont need to get FiT at all with the meter you have as you are effectively getting paid full day rate as is. That's more than FiT will ever give you, so keep what you have.

Try to get your next reading to be a positive one so that it doesn't ring any alarm bills in their billing systems. As the winter rolls in you will naturally be importing more than exporting anyway so the subsequent bills over the winter should be fine until next summer where you will have the same problem again.

They will catch up with you eventually, just keep your head down for as long as you can! 😉

briancoolcat · 25-08-2022 12:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119519507#Comment_119519507

Ok thanks for the explanation. I will keep the head down as I have refused a smart meter all ready. If I can get this year and next year out of my old meter I will be happy enough and seeing as we are all going to have a smart meter installed eventually I will bite the bullet and get a smart meter on a 24 HR tariff. Do any of the more knowledgeable posters here reckon we might get a bit more than 14 cent per unit from the energy providers exported to the grid down the line?

KCross · 25-08-2022 12:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119519836#Comment_119519836

This is what we have confirmed from the providers so far

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119511819#Comment_119511819

DC999 · 25-08-2022 4:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119519836#Comment_119519836

FIT rate actually doesn't matter at the moment for those lucky souls with the backwards-spinning meters. We're getting the 'net metering' of 1 full credit for 1 unit sent to the grid. So at the point you have to move from the backwards meter, then look at what is happening in the FIT world. And that gives those of us who are new to solar time to suss out the tariffs that would better suit us. We've longer to see what our consumption is / could shift to.

Ummagumma_78 · 25-08-2022 5:15pm

We installed a 5.1 kWp system in May 21. The meter has been spinning backwards since. Meter is on the outside wall. I just make sure I submit regular readings and never go negative. Will get as long as I can out of it.

SirPat · 12-09-2022 3:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119496589#Comment_119496589

Fab thread!! :) and thanks for that pic! Looks like I have the older non rachet one :)

Working on getting a solar system in soon! likely about 4-5 kw and will have the capacity to more than double that with only adding panels. Also getting a battery unit so can store/use some of my own when needed.. Will upgrade over next few years and as soon as can see am comfortably over for the year cycle will wave good buy to elec connection!

We have been avoiding the smart meter like crazy! To much power to them and yea the prices are not always good! The other pain is the location of the old meter is a royal pain and in a very tight spot so we asked them when they checked if we could move it at the same time.. eeeep! They said get you elec to put in the cable work / cert and then call them and pay 500.. so waved good buy!

One item to mention.. If have the old meter with the rachet = I don't think your supplier will get the money for the units as they have no way of knowing/measuring! Think would likely be ESB who can benefit as it would be their meters at the top and able to see how many units 'magically' appeared on the network..

If have the meter that runs backward :) mruhahaha! ok they would likely not be happy if the value goes down.. the benefit of this is any units removed from the total are saving you full value of what you would have to pay+vat!! i.e. if unit cost is 25c then that's what each saved one is worth.. this is better that feed in tariff as feed in tariff is normally quite a bit less than unit cost to buy!

Thanks for mention of that form that is needed will be checking it out as well!

DC999 · 12-09-2022 3:33pm

Hey @SirPat , off topic on the backwards meter stuff. You mentioned you're going to get 4-5 Kwp system soon plus a battery. And that you might upgrade in time as 'have the capacity to more than double that adding panels'. It could be worth looking at not getting the battery now but getting a larger setup instead. Costs a lot to get the roofers and sparks out now and a year down the line (to make it larger) and you might need a larger inverter then. So if they are on your roof + in the attic anyway, get the larger size now I'd suggest. Then the 'engine' is bigger so you produce more, and get more FIT and likely get higher self consumption (as more is available when you do need juice).

I can only fit 5Kwp of panels (no more space available on roof or in garden) so a battery is the only 'upgrade' I can get. But if I had a choice of more panels (and more FIT for a lot of the year and I know FIT may not be around forever or at these rates), I'd likely ignore the battery and get more panels. Jury on this forum is very much out on getting a battery now that there is a decent FIT offered. Anyways, ask the installers for options and then you can drop the design and quote into the 'quote' thread. All the best with the hunting!

bullit_dodger · 12-09-2022 4:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119608192#Comment_119608192

I'd echo what DC999 mentions about the battery, although in your case if you do have a backward spinning meter, then a battery would be (in your case) a bad investment. You have effectively the biggest battery of them all with a backward spinning meter. You "sell" to the grid during the day when you have excess from your panels and buy back that unit at night when there's no sun. No battery. No losses.

I would be very very very slow to swap that for a smart meter. you are in the lucky position of having the glorious meter from God himself. Just make sure that you always add on a few units from one reading to the next so it doesn't look like you are using "negative" units, and your golden.

Spend the extra battery money on panels.

Bad news: At some stage in the not so distance future (2023-2024), you'll have to get a smart meter I think, or be forced by excessive rate tariffs that not having a smart meter will cost you a fortune - but for now, your laughing

Jonathan · 12-09-2022 5:24pm

ESBN making a note of everyone on this thread. 😂

bullit_dodger · 12-09-2022 7:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119608745#Comment_119608745

LOL

Markus Antonius · 14-09-2022 7:14pm

I assume this is a backwards spinamajig given it doesn't have the symbol:

2022-09-14 19_11_53-Document1 - Word.png

My interest in solar panels has been piqued...

slave1 · 16-09-2022 2:29pm

I'm going to throw something into the mix, mate of mine's parents (home house) got a Smart Meter after they got "the letter", they were consuming 1MW per month off the old spinning backwards meter, the Smart Meter has them at a third of that since install (same consumption habits). 40/50 year old uncalibrated meter has probably cost them thousands over the years.

ELM327 · 16-09-2022 3:01pm

@Markus Antonius yes

Questions on Solar PV Self Install: Meter running backwards

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