Is it time to join Nato

If the motives of it's main members are as shown, how would it not in turn influence how NATO behaves?

The question are. Do you believe arms industries influence the policies of the main and most powerful members of NATO? Is it a stretch to believe therefore that that influence extends to NATO?

As long as those suspicions exist we have no role to play in NATO IMO.

What I am asking the namecallers (not you BTW) here is to show there is no influence on policy from those who profit from conflict and who 'look forward to significant growth' because of it.

It doesn't have to manifest in 'aggressiveness'.

What is unfathomable to me still and nobody here has credibly addressed it here, is, if NATO's motive/agenda is protection and purely defensive, why was Ukraine left out in the cold as almost an invitation to attack? Putin eying up Ukraine, and doing his own gameplaying would validate defence spending by NATO and it's main players.

Why was the invasion of Crimea tacitly ignored with only ineffectual sanctions imposed? Was Putin and his regime shunned and treated as a pariah state? Wouldn't an alliance that is presumably defensive and protective do that? Was Bush gameplaying and upping the ante when he invited Ukraine to apply in 2008?

They say corruption and objection internally was the reason not to admit Ukraine, but corruption collapsed the Estonian government just last year. So it's hardly sustainable to insist that was the reason.

Bush, in what was seen as the time as 'raising tensions' (IMO 'gameplaying') invited Ukraine and Georgia' to join NATO when Germany and France publically said that it would do exactly what has happend, stoke conflict.

Of course that was and is an everpresent part of it, and when Bush spoke he was fully aware of the tendencies and desires. Germany and France certainly were too and criticised what Bush was doing.

The rest of your post doesn't ring as credible to me. Why allow so many in the region to join but leave one dangling out there on their own and gameplay with the idea of allowing them to join?

The idea that Russia just sated it's desires oblivious to what else was going on, is not credible.

Tensions certainly rose to the point of the invasion in 2014. Did NATO and it's members contribute to that? I think the facts support the idea that they did. And that does not excuse Russia for a second either, before the name-callers get going again. 😁

Stupid sentance.

Look at the main members of the UNSC. Does that mean the UN wants to create and forment conflict? You seem to love the UN and its vetos, yet when push came to shove you were prepared to ignore it and get Ireland to invade another country without UN backing.

Also, you ignored my question. I'll keep asking it.

Where is your evidence that NATO created the Ukraine conflict?

Do you take your talking points from the Kremlin?

You are all over the place.

In one sentence you state that Ukraine was left out of NATO on purpose, I guess so that there would be a war

Then you blame NATO for rising tensions when NATO was cosying up to Ukraine and Georgia.

Are the Swedes and Finns also in on the Conspiracy Francie?

Here we have it, folks, right from the horse's mouth.

NATO didn't let Ukraine join because they knew there would be a war and sure that would be good for the arms industry as they really control NATO.

Let there be no doubt now that Francie is a full-fledged Conspiracy Theorist, pushing views straight from the Kremlin, China and QAnon.

I addressed this above, but you are welcome to your 'theories' Francie.

You didn't, you got somebody else to do it. I.E. you are being told what to say.

So you agree with the theory then, that Ukraine was left out of NATO deliberately to rise tensions, create war and make a profit for the Arms industry.

That is a conspiracy theory perpetuated in the Kremlin, Beijing and QAnon, and you are OK with siding with that theory?

But you do realise that your opinion is one that is pushed as a conspiracy theory from these nefarious sources. Yet you are still happy to believe it, regardless?

Fascinating tbh.

What other conspiracies do you believe in as a matter of interest?

That's not a conspiracy theory Francie. I am sure you are going to tell me otherwise.

'Facts' created by the Kremlin and Beijing.....

I am still waiting for these 'facts' by the way.

No, the 'fact' that the Ukraine conflict was deliberately set up by NATO to appease the arms manufacturers as to 'keep the conflict going'.

These are your words, with no proof mind.

So you have no facts on your premise or theory then.

Noted.