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Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    The eugenics movement was not hundreds of years ago. Nor was the academia. Do better.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    I think I’ve been clear about where I think equality is headed. To answer your question, yes. They compete in war they can compete in sport and everything lesser.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe



    Regardless of how often you deadname Thomas the fact remains that Lia Thomas is not even ranked when it comes to elite swimmers at international level.

    She is ranked 36th in US College rankings, and 46th nationally in the U.S.

    That advantage she is meant to have is looking fairly shite tbh.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,106 ✭✭✭✭chopperbyrne


    A medically transitioned trans man would be considered doping and illegible to compete. I wouldn't want to see any woman displaced by another who was doping.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,837 ✭✭✭Enduro


    Ia your opinion that only the elite of the elite are entitled to fairness in psorts, and everyone else has to just put up with inhernent unfairness?

    You've been asked twice by 2 different people whether you belive the female category should exist in sports, and if so why? You've ignored this twice so far. Is there are a reason you refuse to answer?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,463 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    War isn't sport, your analogy is broken. Even the great leveller of guns are more effective when the person pulling the trigger is a male, on average.

    However, if it were to be entertained, then you would expect to see participation by females on the frontlines equal to the % of females in the army. This isn't the case. Their roles tend to be in support (or increasingly at the backend where physical prowess isn't as important). There is of course, some females on the frontline, but they are outperformed by their male counterparts on average in effectiveness (combat ability, being able to carry equipment). When there are strict physical requirements, very few females make the cut and those that do are a significant % off, on average, the males that make it (understanding that a lot of males don't make the cuts either).

    I would also note that mixed training sessions in sports do occur, very frequently, more frequently at the lower and amateur levels, Djokovic will happily have a sparring session with Williams. When it comes to competition however, they compete in different classes and necessarily so (otherwise, we would see 0 female competitive athletes).

    Now maybe millions of years from now, breeding of the species will mean that everyone gets the same amount of testosterone, estrogen and same skeletal makeup while also being able to continue the species, but it seems unlikely given current evolutionary trends.

    The other thing that could happen is for sports to move beyond the physical, but again, we don't see many females compete at the top level of esports either (and there is a few).

    Another option would be for the competitions to be delineated by ability, this would see females compete in lower divisions alongside males. This would also likely be the death knell for women's professional sport (the money goes up exponentially with the divisions and the female competition is often paid the same as the male competition).

    Or of course the final answer of "why do people bother competing at sport, there's much more important stuff so it should be a hobby for everyone, those millionaire prem players should be paid the same as a butcher or baker". i.e. if we weren't so interested in competition, then this issue goes away (but then the ability for anyone to be an elite athlete is also gone).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Yeah, I have a life and your questions are further down my list of priorities than Lia Thomas is placed in the international ranking for women swimmers. Plus if I was going to respond to every demand I am tagged to answer a question in this thread it would be a full time job.

    I have addressed my view that fairness in sport being an illusion, esp at elite level, more than once in this thread. If you want my opinion go back through the thread.

    There is not, nor has there ever been afaik, a "female' category in sport. There is a "women's" category. A very long time ago it was called "Ladies".

    I am open to being persuaded it should stay or it should do - depending on the arguments put forward.

    However, given this thread is about transgender athletes competing as their identified gender I fail to see the relevance to this discussion so frankly if I wanted to go off down that tangent I would be participating in a thread specifically about that topic/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    A medically transitioned Trans man may compete as a man as long as his hormone levels are within the required parameters and he is selected.

    What about the men he is displacing?

    The boys who wont get a chance because a 'girl' says she a 'guy' so 'she' can cheat?

    You must be incandescent with rage over that. 'Girls' taking 'boys' places. Whatever next?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,463 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    That was more down to oppression, it was always "The competition" (which would be male) and then, if it even existed, "The women/female/ladies/girls competition". I can see the delineation being dropped even as the rules for entry are tightened.

    The Oscars uses male/female, I wonder if they'll change or update it at some point.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,463 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    There is an argument that anyone using medical intervention that impacts performance shouldn't be allowed to compete (i.e. TUE exist for low levels, but you wouldn't be able to compete if steroids were required to treat a condition, through no fault of the person).

    Ultimately, it will end up in practical compromise prioritising fairness, rather than trying to allow everyone on any medication to compete.

    It also seems that you're at an argument of "some limits should be in place" i.e. you need to be taking some medical intervention, which means you're at the mercy of science and stats and numbers as to what exactly those levels should be (or you need to follow overheal and say that there is no barrier at all).



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Now I'm being told what I am "at the mercy of" or else I "need" to follow someone else's position (no offense @Overheal ).

    Do ye (collective plural) ever tire of telling complete strangers what they think, what position they should take? Such perfect lives people have here that they can spare the time to put me to rights on my beliefs and positions.

    Or - and this may be a radical idea - I might have my own position where I accept that sporting organisations have the right to set their 'limits' (your word not mine) whether or not I agree with them, however - they should apply those "limits" equally across the board.

    If a biological woman is expected to have testosterone limits within set parameters in order to compete then if a trans woman's testosterone is within those limits she should be allowed to compete.

    I think the current rules around the scrum in rugby are stupid. If I was still playing rugby I would play by those rules. While calling them stupid and telling everyone who would listen why, in my eyes as a front row forward, I believe they are stupid. However, if the scrummage rules for men and women were different I would have a very serious issue with that and would be doing far more than grumbling.

    Sporting bodies have policy documents on inclusion. Rules about fostering inclusion and diversity. Then apply different criteria as to which women can play all depending on their testosterone levels - and no distinction made between naturally occurring or not. That is not inclusion - that is policing women's bodies.

    No-one tests men for oestrogen which builds muscle mass among other things - men's bodies do not require not 'verification'.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,876 ✭✭✭bokale


    Where is the 500 coming from. Is this during transition? I don't fully understand these swimming stats, but reading on wiki (I know) it seems pre transition she was rated higher than "500" in men's leagues.

    "Thomas began swimming on the men's team at the University of Pennsylvania in 2017, and during her freshman year, recorded a time of 8 minutes and 57.55 seconds in the 1,000-yard freestyle that ranked as the sixth-fastest national men's time, as well as 500-yard freestyle and 1,650-yard freestyle times ranked within the national top 100.[5] On the men's swim team in 2018–2019, Thomas finished second in the men’s 500, 1,000, and 1,650-yard freestyle at the Ivy League championships as a sophomore in 2019.[5][4][9] During the 2018–2019 season, Thomas recorded the top university men's team times in the 500 free, 1000 free, and 1650 free.[10]"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,463 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    If a biological woman is expected to have testosterone limits within set parameters in order to compete then if a trans woman's testosterone is within those limits she should be allowed to compete.

    Just as equally, if a biological woman is expected not to have gone through male puberty, then the same criteria can be applied to a transwoman.

    Incidentally, oestrogen blockers are monitored due to their performance enhancing effects. If oestrogen doping was a performance enhancement, it too would be monitored among the many signals already being monitored for elite athletes.

    I said you were at the mercy of what science tells us if you accept that limitations are needed. It seems you reject that stance, which means you should be telling us what should be guiding us instead of science (or not at all if you wish, we're not going to solve the issues on boards.ie).

    No one is telling you what you should do, however, it is perfectly reasonable for others to point out the direction your argument is heading without expecting a personal attack, this was pretty uncalled for, you're on a public forum, if you're tired of your positions being questioned, step away, or not, don't accuse me of telling strangers what they think, the argument can get pretty heated, I try and represent the scientific aspect for sports without any prejudice, call me on it if my facts are wrong, we're all learning, my position has changed as I have learned more and more and I'm really not interested in getting into the "existence of" argument that others do, people can live how they wish and where they wish, but I understand that for fairness in sport that it can't be inclusive of everyone at the top levels or in competition:

    Do ye (collective plural) ever tire of telling complete strangers what they think



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,331 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    You're literally ignoring anything you don't like.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,228 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    No. A lot of the people interested in this issue dont really care about sport at all.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    I could say the same thing of trans-exclusionaries.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,228 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,331 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    You used to be able to highlight sections of a persons post but you can't seem to do that anymore.

    On the testosterone level part. There are number of differences in male bodies that give them a physical advantage over females which reducing testosterone for a period of time will have no affect on eg. height, bone density, Q Angle. This isn't "guff" it's biology, the biggest differentiating factor when it comes to sporting performance is biological sex.

    I have posted a study, which you ignored, that shows reducing testosterone level for a period of time does not equalise the performance difference between trans women and women.

    Just to remind you

    "Here, we report that current evidence shows the biological advantage, most notably in terms of muscle mass and strength, conferred by male puberty and thus enjoyed by most transgender women is only minimally reduced when testosterone is suppressed as per current sporting guidelines for transgender athletes."

    Transgender Women in the Female Category of Sport: Perspectives on Testosterone Suppression and Performance Advantage | SpringerLink



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 29,744 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Speaking of "telling people what they think"...



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,331 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    If you're talking about me I've backed up everything I said with high level references.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    You used to be able to highlight sections of a persons post but you can't seem to do that anymore

    [ You end up doing it manually by typing a '>' then a space ]



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    So did the Eugenics Movement. It became extremely popular and commonplace for a time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Banging on about male puberty again - when not one Trans woman athlete who went through male puberty has ever won a major international competition or set a world/Olympic record just shows you have zero interest in 'fairness' imo. You are just spouting talking points and ignoring nearly 50 years of demonstrable evidence which shows this 'male puberty' advantage has no advantage in the real world of top flight sport.


    Where is the evidence men have to have their gender verified?

    Testing for doping and testing for conforming to a specific set of hormonal requirements to 'prove' your sex in ordered be allowed to compete are two different things. Men never have to do the latter.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,463 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    If being female was shown to be an advantage in a sport, then it would be tested for in the men's competition.

    I'd agree that it it's early on for trans people in sport to bring in the rules, but as long as it's based on scientific study and analysis, then it can't really be argued with (you can of course dispute the science, but number of world records is anecdotal evidence, how many would need to be set before action was taken? Or are you saying that a trans athlete will never set a record with the previous testosterone only rules?). We've already seen the oldest ever weightlifter athlete at the Olympics and a swimmer jumping from top 500 to top 10 in their class, at what point would you reassess?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,106 ✭✭✭✭chopperbyrne


    It's a response to a post asking if I would be okay with a medically transitioned trans man displacing women from teams/events/podium placements, which appears to have since been deleted or edited.

    Assume it was a "gotcha" attempt.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,331 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    If the numbers transitioning was static it would be one thing but the numbers are continually increasing, and they're also transitioning at a younger age.

    So transwomen are going to be competing in sport more than they've ever been before.

    Sport is different than the rest of our lives as in sport for one person to win, another must lose. For one person to qualify, another does not qualify. So framing it as only an issue if transwomen are breaking world records regularly is incorrect.

    I've mentioned Fallon Fox before. She competed in MMA at a level below UFC and didn't win any championship belts or events. In one of her fights she knocked out her competitor breaking her orbital bone and leaving her needing staples in her head, Fox was 38 years old at the time of the fight. Orbital bone fractures from punches is very very rare in female combat sports. Thirty eight year olds giving that type of injury in either male or female combat sport is rare. She was also a featherweight so again this increases the rareness of that type of injury.

    What we do know is that females have lower bone density. Also

    "Twenty men and 19 women participated. "We had them fill out an activity questionnaire," Morris says, "and they had to score in the 'active' range. So, we weren't getting couch potatoes, we were getting people that were very fit and active."

    But even with roughly uniform levels of fitness, the males' average power during a punching motion was 162% greater than females', with the least-powerful man still stronger than the most powerful woman."

    Why males pack a powerful punch: Upper arm strength, different from females', may have specialized for forceful blows -- ScienceDaily

    Remember 162% is roughly 2.6 times that of the females and I've shown already that transwomen retain most of the muscular advantage that males have.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,837 ✭✭✭Enduro


    How much do you care about sport? For example, could you link to a post that you have made in a sports thread (in the sports category) that has nothing to do with trans-gender sports? Are you a complete hypocrite or do you care about sports?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Speaking for myself I don’t give half a discus throw about sport. I care about human rights though. I have maybe 2 or 3 posts in the sports category the entire time I’ve been here.

    We’re not discussing the finer art of sprinting, swimming boxing MMA etc. here we’re discussing trans inclusion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,837 ✭✭✭Enduro


    "Yeah, I have a life and your questions are further down my list of priorities than Lia Thomas is placed in the international ranking for women swimmers."

    😁 Genuinely witty response is appreciated!

    There are plenty of sports which use the term female category rather than women category. Some use girls too since there are plenty of sports with females under 18! And that's just the English language. There is a big world out there which use all kinds of non-English words for female. Until recently this was all pretty self-evident and well understood.


    I have read your opinions on fairness in sport, and it sounds like you don't think fairness would be possible unless we were identical clones of each other. For someone who has participated in sport, I'm very surprised at your viewpoint on natural genetic advantages. By your definitions fairness in sport could never possibly be achieved between any humans. It's a very nihilist viewpoiint.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,331 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    This explains a lot as for people who don't compete the points I've been highlighting can be easily ignored, as you have done. For those who do compete these are major issues.



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