Judge refuses to accept character witness statements

Floppybits · 18-07-2022 04:17PM #1

Have to say I agree with the Judge. The Judge wouldn't accept character references for a man who was found guilty of rape, indecent and sexual assault of three children unless those giving the references came to court to take stand and be cross examined on them.

Should this be standard in cases such as this?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/judge-refuses-to-accept-character-references-for-sligo-paedophile-41848846.html

Overheal · 18-07-2022 04:19PM

Seems appropriately measured with caveats, can't see a problem with the convicted persons civil rights being violated if they can still appear.

Faugheen · 18-07-2022 04:22PM

Proper f*cking order. Sick of hearing these 'sure he's a grand lad and was heavily involved with the GAA' statements which are never stood up to scrutiny.

If you're going to speak of the good character of someone who has committed heinous crimes then you should do so on the stand and have to face cross-examination.

Floppybits · 18-07-2022 04:26PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119354948#Comment_119354948

I have no problem with character references per se for people who have committed a first offence such as doing something stupid when drunk and genuinely regretting it. But when it comes to crimes such as those in the article then yes the person writing the character reference should be made come to court and be cross examined. It should be for all serious crimes such as all sex crimes, murder and serious assaults.

Potential-Monke · 18-07-2022 08:50PM

Let's not make it two tiered. All character witnesses for every case should attend court to testify. End of. Good call by the judge (for once).

Strumms · 18-07-2022 08:54PM

Imagine being the sort of person who’d be a character witness for a person who’d do that.

elperello · 18-07-2022 09:03PM

I'd have no issue with the references being presented in court by the witness's but I wonder what would be the nature of any cross examination?

Given that nobody would put anything in the reference that was untrue for fear of the consequences I'd imagine the cross examinations would prove to be of little value.

18-07-2022 09:10PM

The same judge flagged this a few weeks ago as coming, looks like it's a directive from the court of appeal so it's going to be the norm going forward

Justice Keane said that a recent dictum from the Court of Criminal Appeal suggested that anyone who wishes to provide a character reference to the court should be in court and available for cross-examination.

https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/courts/2022/06/24/judge-says-those-who-give-character-references-in-criminal-cases-should-be-available-for-cross-examination/

Mrs OBumble · 18-07-2022 09:28PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119356331#Comment_119356331

The worst child-abusers build their reputation to include excellent relationships with adults, precisely because it stops suspicion.

Some of those adults won't have a clue and will genuinely believe that genuinely (whoever) is a great lad. They will think he's not capable of what he's accused of.

Del2005 · 18-07-2022 09:29PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119356390#Comment_119356390

The prosecution could ask questions that show the person isn't as good as the reference said they are. It could also potentially show that the person giving the character reference isn't a good person.

elperello · 18-07-2022 09:49PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119356515#Comment_119356515

Being that these references are only produced post conviction the question of whether the convicted person is guilty or not has already been settled.

The person providing the reference is not on trial they are only testifying in reference to their personal knowledge of the convicted person.

It would appear possible this is being used to discourage people from giving references.

Potential-Monke · 18-07-2022 10:46PM

That sounds like a logical conclusion. So, in that case, character references shouldn't be a thing. Allow it for nobody. Sorted. If you want people to believe you're not a bad person, don't do bad things. Simples.

Floppybits · 18-07-2022 10:58PM

When do character references come into play in court, is it during the trial or at sentencing? Do they carry much weight?

18-07-2022 11:00PM

Good, some priests and GAA clubs might think twice now.

Tork · 18-07-2022 11:13PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119356881#Comment_119356881

I heard a discussion about this on the radio a while ago. They don't seem to carry much weight at all.

I'm glad to hear they're finally bringing people to task over these references because they're particularly objectionable. Leaving aside the nature of their crimes and what their victims had to go through, there's no way anybody can genuinely give a reference for an offender. The nature of many sexual predators is that they are good at hiding this awful side of their character. How well can any of us ever know people who orbit in our circles?

xxxxxxl · 18-07-2022 11:17PM

I can Imagine CW if you punched someone but these crimes. What are they gonna say there a lovely person would never hurt a fly. I mean what could you possible say in this case as a CW ?

y0ssar1an22 · 18-07-2022 11:26PM

without having thought this through too much, i would do away with them altogether. let the evidence speak for itself. you are being judged for the crime only.

xxxxxxl · 18-07-2022 11:39PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119356967#Comment_119356967

It makes sense in some cases. But where a level of premeditation goes in I would get rid of them. No one wakes up and decides to do these crimes. Even in Cases where the person has been found not guilty I think it just muddies the water. Evidence only for Sex crimes.

El_Duderino 09 · 19-07-2022 05:53AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119356598#Comment_119356598

That's exactly what I was thinking. If they want to get rid of the statements, then they should so that.

I presume the ability to give the reference without appearing was to ensure equality.

But seriously. If you were friends with someone who turned out to be a convicted sex offender, who would give them a character reference? How would you show your face in town again after giving a positive character reference for someone who did that?

Random sample · 19-07-2022 06:27AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119357150#Comment_119357150

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/the-sex-case-that-divided-a-town-and-shocked-a-watching-nation-26593097.html

Your comment brought this case to mind. Aside from lining up to shake his hand, some went on the radio afterwards to continue their defence of his good character. Sickening.

Irelandsnumberone · 19-07-2022 06:34AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119357150#Comment_119357150

Scumbags like it run the Dail believe it or not. Worse still people voted for him

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30984023.html

Dempo1 · 19-07-2022 06:36AM

One could be forgiven for Niavity when given a character reference but my word you'd have to question what these people in this particular case where thinking.

The problem as I see it , like the poor Box and charitable donations (which in the case of the poor box, I thought had stopped, open to correction) , there's too much ambiguity around mitigations and "Alternatives" .

Obviously a Judge has to be seem to be objective and fair but if the defence is permitted to submit character references and people take the time to write them, they should be prepared to back up and explain these references in court. Excellent decision by the Judge.

For far to long and in particular public representatives have submitted outlandish character references without being called out to explain themselves and justify said references.

hullaballoo · 21-07-2022 11:50AM

As a lawyer I always felt these character references were of dubious value anyway. No seasoned judge would be paying them much heed in sentencing. They might get a nod in sentencing remarks but I doubt they have ever had much of an impact on the actual sentence.

Cross-examination of any witness giving evidence that's in dispute is an option in all adversarial litigation so it's a reasonable enough development (to call it that) that if there's something in a character reference the State disputes, it should be open to have the person cross-examined.

foxsake · 21-07-2022 12:09PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119356331#Comment_119356331

it is possible to find the guilty partys crime abhorrent and still give a fair reflection on the positives in their lives.

Irelandsnumberone · 21-07-2022 04:24PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119357187#Comment_119357187

Gone very quiet on this thread once i mentioned this

skimpydoo · 21-07-2022 07:59PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119369141#Comment_119369141

I was about to mention it too and it's funny how things went quiet after it was mentioned.

Gatling · 21-07-2022 08:03PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119356331#Comment_119356331

Gwan the parish .

That's the mentality ,sure he didn't touch my kids he's a grand lad

Potential-Monke · 21-07-2022 08:56PM

I don't think that article has anything to do with it. Just no more of a discussion to be had, consensus seems to be the same among everyone.

Irelandsnumberone · 21-07-2022 09:21PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119370193#Comment_119370193

Obvs not the people who voted this scumbag after he gave his character reference

Potential-Monke · 21-07-2022 09:23PM

Did they know he gave a reference before they voted him in? I'll be honest, I hate politics so I know very little about them.

Leg End Reject · 21-07-2022 09:32PM

How are character references relevant if someone is convicted of violent crimes?

"Ah sure they're a decent skin apart from the odd rape and murder." I find it bizarre.

Judge refuses to accept character witness statements

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