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Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    No you posted to a link that doesn't show that. I'm not doing the heavy lifting of proving your claim. The link didn't do the heavy lifting for your claim, either. You haven't provided any evidence and I don't need any to refute it.

    You're just arguing for the sake of arguing here.

    That's a bit reductive, the whole point of the site is the sake of talking.



  • Posts: 6,775 [Deleted User]


    So women and men should compete in boxing, the 100 meter sprint, and MMA?

    Utterly bizarre.

    I mentioned self-discrediting earlier. But this is just insane stuff you're advocating.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,469 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    Good shout, I was thinking sailing as well but that seems to be segregated.

    Though I'd imagine we'd see sports using animals banned before we see open category only events at the Olympics.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    "Bizarre!" "Insane!"

    These sound like arguments, but they aren't.

    For the past several centuries at least, women have been treated as delicate property. I'm willing to bet when future generations in a post equality world just let kids play rough and tumble, without gender stereotyping them from cradle to college, we will see increasingly less clear distinctions in the physical aptitude of any of the sexes. It won't just be kids 'born to be women olympians' by their parents either.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,469 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    Is war an olympic event? Are females equally represented on the frontlines in war? (or even according to their %'s?).

    That's a bit of a bizarre answer.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    War is far more gruelling than an Olympic event, with far higher stakes. Marches in full gear, just for a routine.

    And you're telling me that can't possibly compete in Soccer/Football/Rugby together because of gender stereotypes, right?



  • Posts: 6,775 [Deleted User]


    post equality world...

    A world where women are forced to lose more and more and more to men, by being forced to compete alongside them, is not creating a "post-equality world"; it's creating a new and even worse inequality, and one created for the sole purpose that trans competitors can be involved in some equal-ish way.

    As I said, it's mind-numbingly bizarre.

    Some people say that many trans activists are pursuing a misogynistic agenda. Ideas like the above help me understand why.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    The only thing I find "mind-numbingly bizarre"

    Is a man who says women gaining true equality would be tantamount to them losing power to men.

    How the duck does that work?



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,327 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    In a Lalaland bereft of hard science and basic biology maybe. I know this nurture/culture stuff is fashionable and appealling but it's a bloody nonsense and proveably so. Even your example of just letting kids play rough and tumble shows clear differences between the sexes and these differences are even seen in monkeys and the great apes.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,867 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    You need a reference from a dissertation now to be convinced that biological sex plays a bigger part in physical performance in sport than race?

    Get away out of that. You are just arguing for the sake of arguing at this stage.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,469 ✭✭✭✭astrofool




  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,327 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Some women can "compete" in war because of technology that narrows the clear gender gap, or they're extreme outliers for their sex and the armies that have brought women into their infantry forces have had to continually drop their standards to get them through the door.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    In those gorilla troops there are gender roles though.

    In fact the silverback case study only reinforces the theory, since Silverbacks would instinctively treat their women as subjugated property. Suggests to this layperson that far from being disprovable nonsense, the gender dichotomy has played a critical role in the development of the species and in particular the distinct traits between male and females:

    Male gorillas are more than twice as large as females and powerfully built. This underscores their evolutionary legacy of male contest competition and polygyny. Indeed, gorillas were long thought to exist almost exclusively in harems, small multi-female groups led by one powerful silverback. Despite the herculean strength and sharp canine teeth of silverbacks, gorillas are vegetarians. Their powerful bodies are used only for fighting each other.

    If we become a species with higher parity in gender roles why would we not develop with parity in physical performance as well.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,867 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    If we become a species with higher parity in gender roles why would we not develop with parity in physical performance as well.

    Eh no. We won't. Because biology.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    If you don't want to support your arguments either, I'm not gonna do it for you.

    Maybe I'd be arguing for the sake of it if I presented a bunch of conjecture, refused to back it up then attacked people for asking me for proof of my claims.



  • Posts: 1,678 [Deleted User]


    Bizarre to see liberal men use terminology I'd only expect from redpilled MGTOW dudes.

    "They want equality so... here they are!"

    It doesn't matter in some sports, but having a significant physical advantage due to different biology is simply unfair. I don't know why there's even an argument. And this observation does not mean I hate transwomen.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    We live in a society with gender roles and stereotyping, just like the Silverback Gorillas example, the correlation is unsurprising.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,469 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    I would say that it is interesting to see the same reductive reasoning play out twice the same way for the same argument (OEJ went down the same rabbit hole many months ago) and to be fair, you got to the logical conclusion of that direction much faster.

    Though "war" was a bit further out of left field than others (we are of course counting all the open world records set by female war vets 🙂).



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,327 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Good jesus... Do you even science? And extremely basic science at that. It seems not and this softer than a nonagenarian knob on social studies everything is a social construct nonsense is getting in the way of actual observable reality and hard facts.

    Gender roles in gorillas. Of course there are, because their sexual dimorphism is high. It literally points this out in your quote. They're are more than twice the size of females. No matter how you would raise a female gorilla she's going to get slapped into mush the first time she pisses off one of the males. The article* goes on(in a torturous way) to say yep it's a mixture of nature and nurture, but some fundamental differences remain.

    Men on average have around 50% more upper body strength than women and around 30% more lower body strength. Women have smaller hearts and lungs, wider hips and less bone and muscle densities. These are hard biological facts. Now we can point to taller stronger women, but they're outliers, precisely because they're not the norm and even these outliers are dwarfed in number by above average men and male outliers are even further out.

    As for the notion of us becoming a species with higher gender parity magically developing parity in physical traits, I suggest you reread on the origin of species and how long such evolutionary changes take.





    *and I don't know why they're so surprised that because of environmental pressures some otherwise lone male and female gorillas grouped up away from the harem setup. This kinda flexibility has been observed in great apes before. They're intelligent animals and quick to adapt to environmental changes. It's how we came along. We're the most adaptable of all, around some basics, and this is very much the case in our sexual and reproductive strategies. .

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Good jesus... Do you even science?

    I did preface myself as the layperson. I'm a mechanical engineer; not an anthropologist, sociologist, biologist, geneticist, athlete, OB-GYN...



  • Posts: 6,775 [Deleted User]


    It's ironic that the person most requesting scientific evidence wants us to unquestioningly accept that "trans women are women".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal




  • Posts: 6,775 [Deleted User]


    Nah, not getting into these rabbit hole linguistic games. You've done this kind of thing before. It's well rehearsed.

    All I'll say in response to your question is that no biological male can ever become a woman. Ever. Period.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    All you've done is play linguistic games? Biological this, biological that.

    I guess turnabout isn't fair play. Shuck a duck.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Like it's in the name you used yourself: Trans Women.

    That's like saying Orange Potatoes aren't Potatoes because they are orange. This is very simple semantics with Sets I would have thought.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,469 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    I wouldn't be bringing language into it either, unless we're going to start boiling some couch potatoes :)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    How about Mens league & Birthing Persons league?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,469 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    To be fair, there is a concerted effort to remove the qualifiers for a lot of sports, e.g. when the ladies team play it's reported as simply "manu v liverpool".

    Right now it's the Womens's World Cup and World Cup, either mens gets added or Womens gets dropped.



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  • Posts: 6,775 [Deleted User]


    Can we just summarise things...

    You believe that:

    • trans women are literally women and trans men are literally men
    • trans women have no advantages in women's sport if they pass through puberty and take puberty blockers / undergo surgery
    • sport should be an open contest where men and women compete together on every sport, including boxing and MMA
    • gender is not a social construction, it exists, so there are biological roots to binary and non-binary genders

    My position is that:

    • 99.5% of the population are male or female, and identify as such. Those who identify as trans- are also biologically male or female; you cannot ever switch between these
    • trans women have significant biological advantages in women's sport by passing through puberty, even if they subsequently take puberty blockers
    • sport should be as it currently is, divided by biological sex and not by the subjective concept of gender
    • gender is a social construction, it doesn't objectively exist

    I think that's a fair characterisation of our positions.

    And it's abundantly clear that my side is rooted in evidence, biology, reality, fairness, and equality.

    And your side is rooted in none of these five criteria.



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