Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

18-07-2022 02:48PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119354060#Comment_119354060

Then why do trans women want to join it?

Bannasidhe · 18-07-2022 02:48PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353954#Comment_119353954

Nope.

That whole post is so offensive I refuse to engage with it.

Bannasidhe · 18-07-2022 02:53PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119354064#Comment_119354064

There is a Women's Category.

Trans Women are women.

There is not a "Women's category only for biological females"

If there was Trans Women could not participate.

I realise the latter is what people like you are lobbying for, but it does not exist - and hopefully never will as not only are Trans Women being thrown under that ideological bus - biological women with naturally elevated testosterone levels are too.

AMKC · 18-07-2022 02:58PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119354064#Comment_119354064

I am sure if there was a biological Womens sport and just a Womens sport then Trans Women into sports would be happy to compete in the latter but there is not. There is men's sports and women's sports. As long as the Trans Woman has fully transitioned and is at least a year on hormones then I see no problem with her competing with other Women. Anything else is disgrimination.

Many famous trans- people, including the former Olympian herself, Caitlyn Jenner, disagree with you.

Ye you see she is a bit messed up. I have nothing against her transition it's just her whole family I think that are messed up.

J.O. Farmer · 18-07-2022 03:00PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353968#Comment_119353968

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119354070#Comment_119354070

Read it again, I didn't say transgender people were doping or cheating so I don't see how it's offensive beyond saying trans women have an unfair advantage which we disagree on.

I used an analogy where some competitors have an unfair advantage and asked if that was acceptable.

Given the reaction I assume neither of you agree with doping.

18-07-2022 03:37PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119354116#Comment_119354116

As long as you keep defining some biological males as women, the "debate" is pointless.

Deep down, you know this position is faith-based and not one rooted in science and logic and actual reality.

It's the New Christianity. Chant the same beliefs every day in the hope that they are right.

Bannasidhe · 18-07-2022 03:40PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119354407#Comment_119354407

And now we have the "It's the new religion card" combined with the "I'm going to tell you what you know/believe/think" card.

HOUSE!

18-07-2022 03:47PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119354420#Comment_119354420

Not at all.

I'd much rather take the word of a former Olympian athlete and arguably the world's most famous trans woman than the loud trans activists on the Internet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y46x2UnPGgo

Blaire White, the most famous trans woman on YouTube with over 1 million followers, disagrees with you.

The list goes on and on and on.

So stop pretending your version of the answer is the right one.

Wibbs · 18-07-2022 03:51PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353968#Comment_119353968

Well it could be easily argued that trans athletes are indeed "doping". They take artificial levels of hormones not produced naturally in their bodies. Every other sportsman and sportswoman would lose their medals for that sort of thing if they were found out. In the case of F-M trans they add in testosterone. Well they have limits? Yes they do, but hormones like test act in different ways in different people, some get much more of a boost than others(it's why the argument of "well if they're all doping it's a level playing field anyway" is a nonsense). M-F trans could be argued are reverse doping. They start out with the larger physicallities, bigger lungs, different limb lengths of men and take artificial hormones not produced naturally in their bodies to be able to compete with women.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353933#Comment_119353933

Oestrogen changes how you feel and act in the brain? Indeed it does. yet at the same time we're told "gender is a social construct", which it isn't. It's just the current fashionable narrative of nurture is greater than nature that sprang up during the 1960's and 70's as part of counterculture politics and philosophies. It was countering the previous politic and philosophy that nature was the driver. Actual hard science has long demonstrated it's six of one, half dozen of the other, but prenatal hormone exposure and later puberty drive quite the few differences. Indeed trans people who very much tend to use the "gender is a social construct" thing actually demonstrate it's not. If it were and society was "constructing" them from the cradle to be the gender of their genitals then there wouldn't be any trans people, or much much fewer.

Annasopra · 18-07-2022 03:59PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119354458#Comment_119354458

@Bannasidhe

Looks like you have a full house with "these (transphobic) trans people agree with me"

18-07-2022 04:07PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119354522#Comment_119354522

You are saying that any trans woman who disagrees with biological males competing in women's sport is transphobic?

Quite astonishing that you're othering trans- people who just happen to disagree with you.

Overheal · 18-07-2022 04:16PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119354178#Comment_119354178

This whole thread is embroiled in arguing trans men in womens divisions is cheating so no I don't think this dodge has flight.

Overheal · 18-07-2022 04:19PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119354458#Comment_119354458

Argumentum ad populum/Appeal to authority etc.

Overall just finding a few TERF trans persons to crutch your arguments. What makes them more right than another is one has 1 million youtube followers and the other leads a quieter life on Boards?

18-07-2022 04:22PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119354629#Comment_119354629

One thing I can absolutely assure you, is that you will not win this debate by calling everyone with whom you disagree, a "TERF", including many trans people.

All that does is cause alienation and resentment.

bokale · 18-07-2022 04:29PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119354060#Comment_119354060

You've some patience, and in this heat!

Overheal · 18-07-2022 04:34PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119354653#Comment_119354653

....your entire raison d'etre in this thread is to alienate trans persons from sports based on resentment of trans womens scores. You're having an absolute laugh.

There's nothing mislabeling or besmirching about it: Caitlynn Jenner wants to exclude trans women from a feminist activity.

Ironically you won't win the debate either by shouting biological this and that, or shouting meow woof bark. Apparently that wasn't alienating enough!

CatFromHue · 18-07-2022 04:46PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353772#Comment_119353772

I've never made that claim. I've said, and backed it with a link to a paper on it, that the transition process doesn't eliminate male advantage.

I've said that transwomen will be overly represented at the higher level of female sport and they are. They're represented at the highest level in numbers far higher than transmen are in the male category.

The science is also backed up by various transwomen moving up in performance levels after they transition. Then there's also a number who didn't compete as a male but then took up sport after they transitioned and are competing at high levels in their categories, this is because of the male advantage they have. The example of Fallon Fox is a good example of this as she was 38 when she was competing and gave an injury which is incredibly rare in female combat sports, and is rare for a 38 year old to give in male combat sports.

So the claim, which I don't think you've made in fairness but has been made by Trans organisations, that transwomen competing in female sports is fair and safe is just not true.

J.O. Farmer · 18-07-2022 04:59PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119354618#Comment_119354618

Where have I personally said that transwomen are cheating. I've said they have an unfair advantage and provided data to back up my point (we can agree to disagree on the interpretation, no point in rehashing it).

I note you didn't ask the poster talking about reduced testosterone and heavy bones for data.

I consider cheating breaking rules to gain an unfair advantage. I haven't accused any transwomen of breaking rules and their advantages are as a result of nature not deliberate actions on their behalf.

Now you may believe this would be cheating except you disagree there is any advantage either that or you're obfuscating in order to deflect from the notion that even a small number of competitors with unfair advantages is unfair to the majority of competitors.

The debate is around inclusion or fairness. You can't have both just 1 or the other.

Overheal · 18-07-2022 05:01PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119354838#Comment_119354838

It's not a personal attack so don't take it so personally. I don't chase up every stupid thing said in the thread. You're not dispelling the fact that arguments exist on thread that allege trans persons competing in cis sports is unfair to cis competitors, that's tantamount to accusing them of cheating.

The debate is around inclusion or fairness. You can't have both just 1 or the other.

Ridiculous. Include everyone and it's fair.

18-07-2022 05:06PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119354849#Comment_119354849

Cis sports and cis competitors...

Jesus Christ.

AMKC · 18-07-2022 05:08PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119354478#Comment_119354478

Oestrogen changes how you feel and act in the brain? Indeed it does. yet at the same time we're told "gender is a social construct", which it isn't. It's just the current fashionable narrative of nurture is greater than nature that sprang up during the 1960's and 70's as part of counterculture politics and philosophies. It was countering the previous politic and

Actually being Trans has proven to exist for a lot longer than most people realise. I can not remember where I read it but I think even in Egupt there was Trans people qmwgeb they ruled. OK the first actually operation never happened until quiet recently sometime in the last 80 odd years.

But to say it is a social construct I disagree with I think it is normal and natural. It is only now with social media and other media that people know about Trans people more.

Overheal · 18-07-2022 05:11PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119354871#Comment_119354871

You gonna be okay there? What did I do wrong this time according to your pearls

BattleCorp · 18-07-2022 05:18PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119354070#Comment_119354070

There was nothing offensive in that post by the way.

Overheal · 18-07-2022 05:20PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119354943#Comment_119354943

To you.

18-07-2022 05:22PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119354779#Comment_119354779

A picture paints a thousand words.

Overheal · 18-07-2022 05:39PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119354962#Comment_119354962

Are the thousand words related to finally feeling like a woman in a womans body, being more attuned to your physicality and therefore performing better?

Or are there a lot of words you think its telling but isn't really telling.

Or maybe it doesn't mean what I said either, since she got 3.76% slower after she transitioned.

Thomas’ best time in the 200 freestyle ended up being her 1:41.93 mark from the Zippy Invitational in December. That effort ultimately ended up 3.76% slower than her best time before her transition.

@Bannasidhe I guess we're at the recycling complete garbage card stage.

18-07-2022 05:50PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119355042#Comment_119355042

3.76% slower. Am I supposed to be impressed?

That link you quoted tears Lia Thomas' record apart and explains the injustice. So thanks for posting it.

J.O. Farmer · 18-07-2022 05:53PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119354849#Comment_119354849

It's you who says it's tantamount to cheating and you are entitled to that opinion but I disagree with that.

It would be cheating where a man transitioned to be a woman with the sole intention of winning at sport. It's not impossible given potential rewards from prizes, sponsorship or other rewards but I would have thought instances would be rare and I'm not aware of any case.

It would also be cheating if rules existed to stop transwomen competing in the women's category and a transwoman deliberately hid the fact they were assigned male at birth. Again not aware of any cases.

Including everyone is fair in terms of inclusion not necessarily fair in terms of competition.

It's tantamount to saying it's the taking part that counts not the competition part of competing. Let's not keep score and everybody gets a medal.

CatFromHue · 18-07-2022 05:54PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119354849#Comment_119354849

The women's category exists for a reason, as do all categories.

Males have a physical advantage over females (the lowest weight category in male weightlifting at the 2020 Olympics is 61Kg only one woman, who was in the +87Kg category, out of all the female weightlifters beat the winner of that category. The winner of the 100m sprint in the women's category would not have qualified for round 1 of the male category. The winner of the women's marathon would have come in 71st in the male marathon).

The female category exists, as do all categories, so that the people in it have a fair competition against those also in it. The average male heavyweight should beat an average light heavyweight who in turn should beat an average middleweight and so on.

The issue when it comes to transwomen is that they still retain their male advantage so will be at an advantage compared to the rest of the women's category. This doesn't mean they'll win everything but it does mean they have an advantage that other people in that category don't have and will be overly represented in winning. The science backs this up and the results are starting to back this up too.

That doesn't mean they're cheating as they're playing to the rules.

What it does mean is that the rules should be changed, which is what some organisations have done recently to deal with this advantage. In swimming a few years back there were a number of competitors who wore the shark skin swim suits. They weren't cheating as this was perfectly legal. The organisers than found that these suits gave an advantage to those who wore them compared to those who didn't and changed the rules to reflect this.

There is no perfect solution when it comes to transwomen in sport, only imperfect ones. Creating an open category and a female category for those who've never gone through male puberty looks to be the least imperfect.

bokale · 18-07-2022 05:56PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119354962#Comment_119354962

What was thomas' highest ranking pre transition?

Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

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