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Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    I presume the plan is for primary radar to be monitored by the IAA and not separately by the AC?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,606 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    non-NATO EU air force

    That list may not exist shortly the way things are going



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    I have every faith in Austria, using the opportunity to get their Tranche 1 Typhoons Feet wet.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,824 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    No, it will be a military radar, operated by the military, whether thats the Air Corps or an air defence component of the Army remains to be seen.

    The IAA have a thorough and very busy civilian brief and of course there will be close liaision (military reps in Shannon Centre probably), but this will be a military asset.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    That seems strange. The threat is to safe navigation and that's the IAAs job. The AC are short of controllers as is, will the man in the tower in Bal be keeping an eye on this on the side?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,824 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    You're ignoring the first priority that has already been announced, tackle retention and get recruiting massively. The radar will still take a couple of years to plan, procure and construct.

    And as I did say in my post, it could just as easily be an Army function, after all, they do operate the limited air defence we have now.

    I take your point about the IAA, but this is a military complement to an existing civilian system that doesn't do a comprehensive enough job, so why, as in other Countries, would it not be operated by the military?

    Any potential action that may have to be taken in an alert scenario, would be a conversation between the Military seniors, the National Security Committee, the Government and whatever secretive liaison there is between this State and the UK Govt / RAF - not the IAA.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    It's a bit of a stretch to say that the civilian system "doesn't do a good enough job". Give them a primary radar, they'll do the job.

    We're fabricating scenarios here in order to justify QRA, in my opinion.

    Putin would only love for us to waste a couple of hundred million on jets, forgetting that we're an island.

    You can't fix a stricken airliner from a Gripen.

    Bears and airliners won't be on a collision course if the IAA can see them. Anything more dangerous than that is unacceptable to the Finn's, Swedes, Danes, Germans, Brits and French (and whoever's doing air policing in the Baltics at the time) before it's our problem.

    We dont have anything to bomb in our area such that fast jets are justified, whereupon QRA becomes a useful thing to do in peacetime.

    Tactical radar on the other hand is needed and entirely within the remit of the Army.

    Strategic radar is a peacetime facility best utilised without the DF as a middleman.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,606 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    But would they make it that far without breaking down is the question



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,824 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    I disagree with basically all of that and thats fine.

    But let me ask you; you're concerned about situations and scenarios being exaggerated or fabricated, yes? if I described to the You of 10 or 15 years ago, the World the way it is today, the pandemic, the politics, the War, the post-truth society, the cyber conflict, the old alliances gone and new ones forged, climate, energy, food, water, supply chains, damaging tech, all of it - would you not think I was off my fruit and nut? Because I would....

    We have no idea what might have been unconscionable before that could materialise as a challenge or a threat in the near future. Strategic radar is a military competence in most of the Countries in Europe, nay the the World and this whole initiative is about Ireland trying to arrest 50 years of underinvestment and get to the level of bare minimum, not engage in provocation.

    I mean Sweden and Finland just effed their neutrality in the bin with about 3 milliseconds of thought. Thats the game board at the moment, those are the stakes.

    A primary radar operated by the Defence Forces does not automatically lead to Ireland getting fast jets or needing tactical bombing capacity, but you'd better have a chat to the Brits - with all their unstable politics - because their air force activity in our back yard is only going to increase. The question is, do we want them involved in any way with what is our sovereign and foreign relations responsibility.



  • Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    More like 3 decades not 3 millie seconds thought.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Not really, while there has been a long running debate in those countries, up till the invasion the support for joining NATO was still a significant minority in those nations. The Russian invasion massively altered their defence planning virtually overnight.

    And yes for “non NATO” nations we are left with Austria and Switzerland in Europe having fighter fleets, neither of them are going to be in a position to support us.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    The IAA sent a very specific submission to the CoDF, laying out exactly what the risk is. unfortunately much of it is redacted, but it is far from fabricating a scenario.

    The IAA highlighted the critical importance of a need for a ‘policing’ function across Irish-controlled air space, which sees upwards of 75% of all transatlantic flights pass through Irish skies daily.




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    Doesn't look well for their submission when they attempt to spell Air Corps twice and can't get it right.

    If they want 'policing', let them liaise with the Guards do it.

    If they can see aircraft, and they know exactly what the aircraft is thanks to the other countries who have identified and passed this information on, what exactly is an expensive QRA adding?



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,824 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    You're being obtuse now. 'policing' in that context is the verb to police; to control, regulate or keep in order, it has FA to do with the Guards.

    Expensive QRA adds a pretty basic tool found in most European states, and something that an independent and neutral Republic should have, while not relying on a big power next door, which in itself makes a mockery of any notional neutrality in the first feckin place.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    As they say "policing" with a small "p".



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    Just because other countries do it does not mean that we need it. Poland has several hundred tanks - where are they to be found in the Commissions report? The Spanish have marines, where are the plans for our Corps? If other European republics have it, doesn't that make us not sovereign too?

    We don't need QRA to be sovereign. Our neutrality is a fudge and the only means by which we can realistically defend our interests is to drop it as soon as things get hot in the world.

    A squadron of Gripens will add exactly F all to European defence, which is Irish defence.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,824 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Again I disagree.

    If Poland were Ireland, they'd have submarines, frigates, inshore PTBs, ASW aircraft. But they aren't, so tanks is the ballgame for them. Tanks and big fat self propelled guns and MLRS. Just like the type being sent to Ukraine from NATO as we speak.

    Spain has a massive land area and two large island archipelagoes, one a good distance from the Homeland. So a Spanish Marine Corps makes total sense.

    Just not to you, because you dismiss any genuine strategic assessment in this much more dangerous World.

    Far better military minds than you and indeed me, wrote a report and told us where we're lacking and where we're vulnerable. They came from far flung lands to do it, they used their hundreds of years of experience to inform it and they offered solutions, the implementation of which are of no consequence to them personally.

    Your whole approach is mere wishful thinking. The beaches will be busy tomorrow, but there should still be enough room for you to stick your head in the sand.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,464 ✭✭✭Sgt. Bilko 09


    Tank query- The comms report on tanks stated There is a significant deficiency in this regard at present. The level of armour should, where required, be at NATO STANAG 4569 Level 4 across the range of replacement. The report also suggested we over reliant on one specific type of vechile(APCs) more appropriate  armoured vehicles are required and must include an appropriate mix of Combat, Combat Support and Combat Service Support platforms, all of which should be capable of operating in non-permissive environments in support of operations. The white paper 2019 also suggested this and the we over reliant on the mowags since we got rid of our scorpions and SISUs (they did not directly mention sisu by the alluded to the old apcs which included the sisu).

    marine query - report specifically mentions an overhaul to the management of the naval services and management, a marine unit would be included or established thereafter.”The Air Corps and Naval Service should become services, on a par with the Army

    Air-corp query - as part of the rebrand (air force on loa3) as per the report when the overhaul of air corp happens. “The Air Corps and Naval Service should become services, on a par with the Army”. This ties in with services adjustments.

    Sovereignty query - regardless of sovereign status or neutrality status for that matter, a country that is not capable to defend itself or at least put up a fight is a not worthy of having a status at all, like iceland(who’s government turned to facilitating NATO). You do need a QRA to be sovereign again you need to defend what is yours i.e our airspace.

    if you think a squadron of Gripens would do F all to defend our airspace, our interests and our responsibilities for the largest vulnerable body of water and extremely under p(lower case)oliced, well then i would suggest sitting down with a good cuppa, get a maritime map and get a copy book, look up the amount of incursions we encountered by air and sea by the not-so innocent Russians and then try have a look at the havoc they cause for our ATC when the wonder into our airspace blind. When you have a full copy book then you may see the points we are making and the validity of them.

    Oh and we may not get tanks but Centraro 2 is getting quoted a lot in df as Iveco were the first respond to an RFI from the DF. ;) we may have a big guns soon.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,824 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    As Jonny would say, fine bus, sign me up for 60.

    As for Main Battle Tanks, I've been wondering if the Ukraine War may actually hasten the end of such a vehicle.

    When you see the ease with which an Aldi bought drone and a small unit with a shoulder launched Javelin can destroy a Tank, without ever being seen, it makes the 4 million dollar T-90 look like a very poor investment indeed.

    The Centauro makes plenty of sense as an IFV and tactical fire support platform, along with tracked carriers like the Bradley and Level V APCs, but slow, cumbersome, blind Tanks, without even that much firepower to destroy much else except other armour - their relevance lessens every day, especially when a Centauro is 25% the cost.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    FYI, Poland are increasing Defence spending to 5% of GDP.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The Pakistan / China collaboration light fighter jet would be a good option to get in early with the emergent superpower's dominance.


    https://eurasiantimes.com/jf-17-thunder-j-10c-fighter-turkish-air-force-experts/



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Poland has been on a spending spree, along with planning a massive increase in defence numbers, whether or not their economy can sustain a shift to 5% is another question of course, there’s a lot of political mismanagement and vote buying going on there from some comments I’ve seen.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭sparky42


    We are a NATO a standard force, we aren’t going to be buying that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,606 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    A USAF refueling tanker just did a loop around the south and west coast. I wonder was it refuelling jets?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,339 ✭✭✭The One Doctor




  • Registered Users Posts: 23,824 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    He could've been. Didn't some Plastic Paddy USAF jockey with ancestors from Sligo or some place, take a C-17 on a joyride around the Country with permission from Shannon Centre for flight level 5-0?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,464 ✭✭✭Sgt. Bilko 09


    Not a chance in us even vesting an interest that aircraft or anything made in China. C919 is probably the only aircraft made in China landing anywhere our aerodromes giving the agreement with Ryanair.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,824 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Warsaw won't be paying much of that. It'll be NATO cohesion funding or some sort of long term bond or lend lease - basically never to be paid for.

    They are the front line, they shall get the kitchen sink and all.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭sparky42



    The list of mistakes that Russian forces have made in Ukraine is fairly epic at this stage, though I have seen some mil sites referencing that Ukrainian drone loses have been increasing as Russians are starting to improve their operations, from a low base of course. Without question the environment that MBTs are operating is becoming more challenging but improved combined arms can reduce some of those threats.

    Of course if the environment has become to hostile for MBTs with all their active and passive defences to survive in, what hope do lesser armoured vehicles have?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭sparky42


    They may be getting the US equipment LL alright, doubt they are getting the ROK purchases that way though? And even if that is the case, they are going to be paying for the multiple extra divisions that have been announced among other things.



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