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DF Commission Report

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,742 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    The DoD, going back as long as I can recall, have always seemed to delight in returning budget at the end of the year, as if its a great thing. But its actually the worst thing to do, because it demonstrates incompetent management.

    Yes, the other State bodies would teach them a thing or two, but unfortunately its hard enough to spend current expenditure in that fashion when it comes to Defence, unless somebody raises a Purchase Order for 400 Javelin Missiles and 50 million rounds of 5.56.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    I wouldn't have a problem spending the unspent budget, just drip feed it into either upgrades on the existing ships / infrastructure or buy a small plane every year. You'd have half a squadron after 4 years.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 452 ✭✭Grassy Knoll


    It certainly will be interesting to see what way Deputy Cathal Berry votes in the SF motion of no confidence tomorrow - he has explicitly linked his support for the Government to what is announced. I presume he has good linkages to the military in terms of what Command thinks is achievable / desirable. However, Level 2 is only a basic level of capability - Level 3 is where we should be at, albeit we are some distance off. Even at the costed €3 billion, this is a relatively modest medium-term outlay in the context of >€100 billion of projected spending by the overall Government sector in 2023.

    As I see it, apart from neutrality and some of the associated red herrings, we are a wealthy country that benefits massively from EU membership and global trade. Accordingly, we need to play our part as good global citizens, be it peacekeeping / enforcement, defence of the EU (cyber, Med Operations, piracy off Africa, drug interdiction, patrol of our territorial seas, [inc. safeguarding what lies beneath e.g. tel/comm link] and policing of our skies). This is way before we even get to discussing boots on the ground to assist neighbours who share our values and interests, or even further again, NATO membership. Make no mistake a safe, stable and prosperous EU and international order is in our vital strategic national interest - anyone who says anything to the contrary is talking unmitigated Bravo Sierra!!

    While we will never be a massive military power, nor should we be - talk of taking-on the Russians etc is a completely false equivalence. However, we can afford and should be able to provide some level of self sufficiency to defend our own basic national interests as we seek to define them.

    Personally, I can't abide freeloaders or hypocrisy, and I think it is time we displayed some degree of national self respect. I feel most right minded citizens who understand the issues rather than listening to a myopic, insular perspective, would agree.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,742 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    You can't capitalise current expenditure at Departmental level, without express consent from DPER, because again, it demonstrates bad management at operational level.

    Believe it or not, many of the failures to deliver programmes in the Irish public sector, is because of the lack of discretion locally. And the reason for that is because of the Pig's mickey that was made with projects at local level over many years.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,742 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    The only way to ringfence it, is to capitalise it and I explained above what a problem that is.

    The exchequer budget is a pretty transparent process (though involved and boring) for a reason. It absolute does not tolerate Empire building or the creation of large discretionary funds.

    Like every other Department, Defence has to rely on the political commitment to its resourcing on an ongoing basis. That's where the longterm fight will be.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,360 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    The DOD and the defence forces will know fairly early on in the year if they can spend the allocated money if they cant they should have a plan B,C,D etc. Use it on infastructure build or if it so is buy an extra couple of transits but what ever they do they should not be returned.

    I know of one department in particuar which would hire offices they wont use to make sure they spend the allocated funds



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Not a very exciting slug of money to go a very long way. I remember a mate of mine in the DF said that they called the Mowags "bullet magnets"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,360 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    I see in times today one of the recommendations was to have the Military Police a seperate joint body. There was big push back from the senior managament. Whats the issue there?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    The Journal's headline of "€8bn defence proposals" is almost as bad as the comments underneath.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,458 ✭✭✭sparky42




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,360 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Taken from RTE

    "Today's decision should enable the defence forces respond to an attack on Irish sovereignty."

    It must be some primary radar if it can not only see but take action. Have i missed something are we getting Gripens?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Err. I think that must be the case.... remember I posted a few days ago that there was a squadrons worth going free from Jonny Swede?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,742 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Make no mistake, the primary concern and priority for improvement is cyber vulnerability and intelligence / counter-espionage.

    I would suggest that the next greatest vulnerability is sub-surface.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,360 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    So what you are saying is we need a premptive strike on Tory Island. Id say between the 105s firing from the beach near Falcarragh and the 76mm on the becketts we should be able to take them out



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Bring it on! A nation once again!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,742 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Among whom is it causing disquiet?

    I've heard some reticence from RACO who have concerns about the effective rate of pay and allowances for junior Officers as compared to NCO instructors, which is fair enough.

    But the usual commie bullsh1t out of PBP is the sort of thing that should be ignored, as always.

    Contributions from the likes of Labour have been fairly constructive.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,360 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    All i can say is God Bless Mary Lou and her crew. Thanks to her antics with a motion that was never going to pass all attention was diverted from the increase and will be forgotten tomorrow and defence forces can start to rebuild. Hardly a word in the media a great way to do it



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,742 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    I disagree Roadmaster. This is Day 1 of a 10 to 20 year battle for hearts and minds.

    Defence will without doubt need to re-justify itself every budget time.

    A citizens assembly on future defence policy is likely before this Government ends its tenure. Certainly, there will be another White Paper to reinforce new policy thereafter.

    Rather than try and slide this stuff through as quickly and quietly as possible, its going to be necessary to force Joe Public to engage on defence and security matters more directly than they ever have before, or knew they needed to.

    While 30+ years of The Troubles largely marginalised the Defence Forces from public life, the challenges facing all of Europe and the World, will put their fortunes much closer to the centre of both policy and public awareness.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    Has there been any specifics on the breakdown of future current expenditure, i.e. what proportion is on pay and what is on capex?

    Pay is the only real development here IMO, as the capex is just going to pay for the things (MRV, radar which has gone from 10m to 200m?, Etc) already planned but never actually materialised.



  • Posts: 756 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Just looked at HLAP. First impressions are that a lot of low hanging fruit are picked off immediately and they have to be: inclusion, culture etc. Some pay issues and HR issues being addressed. Pretty much what was expected around airlift. There’s a lot is organisational reset and all the big ticket items are “revert to govt”.

    Given the state of collapse of the DF and the need to put in foundations it can be described as a start. If it’s progressively implemented and backed by money and political clout it might get there. I still see the politics I saw: a desire to have a DF with a bit more capacity to keep the UNSC seat rolling around, a desire to maintain dependency on the UK, a desire to do a bit more to keep the EU and in particular the Eastern Europeans off the govts back, a failure to put the Defence of the state front and centre with real urgency. The battle over “vision” for the DF will tell a tale.

    Like the multiple divorcee marrying again, I live in hope but the triumph of hope over experience rarely ends well



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,360 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    So for the air corps are we looking at in the short term 1 extra 295 for transport and 2 139s. Then long term 8 189s or similar?

    Level 4 armour for the army what APC would that be?

    An the navy early repacement of niamh and her sister?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Excuse my ignorance...What is a 189?

    Is it a chopper?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,360 ✭✭✭roadmaster




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Excuse my ignorance...What is a 189



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Thanks. Only one I could come up with was the FW 189!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 304 ✭✭tippilot


    AW189 is actually the civilian version of the AW149. Same size, minus the military bells and whistles.

    No thanks to the AW189, yes please to the 149 which was designed from the outlet as a military chopper. The 189 actually came second and was derived from the 149.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,742 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    I'm not impressed at all with the lack of acceptance in the HLAP of the recommended C2 structure and force element parity (labelled as revert to Govt at later stage).

    As someone who is a project and change manager by profession, I don't think you can agree civilian appointments immediately for Heads of Transformation and Strategic HR, without so much as a roadmap for achieving the key Chief of Defence, Deputy and Vice Chiefs and Heads of Service to enable operational reorganisation.

    Failing to do so, sets up the kind of dysfunction that was seen in An Garda Siochána when the senior civilian administrators landed, without any reform of the Brass and it became a zero buy-in, adversarial environment.

    This worries me quite a bit and makes all other physical equipment decisions fairly incidental.

    PS - I see a footnote in the implementation table, that The Minister wishes to see these recommendations (collectively the above) implemented sooner. There must have been an almighty tussle at Cabinet or inter-department, if Coveney ended up forcing what amounts to a Minority Report, into the HLAP document.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 452 ✭✭Grassy Knoll


    Re Aer Corps air lift, there was commentary recently re an aviation agent examining 2 second hand C 295s on behalf of the DoD? To be fair via some prudent acquisitions good kit can be acquired which meets our needs, with a relatively short lead-in time. Obviously, C130s would be better, but to be fair the commonality of airframes / engines etc would be a big consideration, particularly when technical crew are low in numbers. This will be an incremental build-up of capacity across all three arms.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,018 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    The referenced section in the footnote seems to imply that it is outside of the remit of the Minister of Defense to actually conduct, though I don't see why that is different from a bunch of other suggestions.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,360 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    is the issue with the new Chief role thah He/She will control the budget and thads we it needs legislaton

    I also noted in the government document a major reset of ATCP. So those mean i wonder no more troops for details to Portlaoise prision, Prision transports, Government Buildings, Enfield etc?

    Post edited by roadmaster on


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