Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

Overheal · 13-07-2022 05:15AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119329836#Comment_119329836

You're suggesting childbearing is a hallmark of womanhood so without it what are they

is_that_so · 13-07-2022 07:36AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119300370#Comment_119300370

It's also interesting how some posters feel a need to beat other posters over the head with their choice of support, despite the pretence of being detached and neutral.

Annasopra · 13-07-2022 08:13AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119329714#Comment_119329714

Yeah. You rarely hear from here cause they get abused so much here. 😶

Bannasidhe · 13-07-2022 10:31AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119329840#Comment_119329840

What does biology have to say about people with Mayer-Rokitansky-Kuster-Hauser syndrome?

Does biology have an opinion on a biological girl born without a vagina (Vaginal Agenesis)?

Or Complete androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS)?

If certain body parts are the basis of defining 'woman' then biology has thrown a few curve balls on that score hasn't it? Your attempt to dismiss such cases as 'outliers' demonstrates that you know 'biology says' is not correct.

AIS is present in some form in 1 in 20,000 births. That's some 'outlier'.

briangriffin · 13-07-2022 10:35AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119329734#Comment_119329734

Sorry there are more than 2 sexes? Explain that one?

Was your classmate a true hermaphrodite or had they a DSD?

What has sexuality got to do with gender identity?

Is the nuclear family the problem then do you think society needs a different focal structure to prosper?

Is it not transphobic for the doctor to identify their sex?

Bannasidhe · 13-07-2022 10:36AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119330013#Comment_119330013

Fact is Boards.ie now has a reputation within the wider LGBTQ+ of being a talking shop for unmoderated transphobia. Hard to argue with that view tbh.

Why on Earth would any Trans person subject themselves to the scutter passing for 'discussion' on this site?

briangriffin · 13-07-2022 10:40AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119329799#Comment_119329799

So if 1000 men and women had their brain patterns recorded they would be easily identifiable by the brain pattern independent of the assessor seeing the person, surely that's the easiest test yet then we should follow brain patterns and forget about the traditional genitals nonsense.

13-07-2022 10:42AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119330407#Comment_119330407

Mayer-Rokitansky-Kuster-Hauser syndrome is:

Mayer-Rokitansky-Küster-Hauser (MRKH) syndrome is a rare disorder that affects women. It is characterized by the failure of the uterus and the vagina to develop properly in women who have normal ovarian function and normal external genitalia.

So biology has to say that these women are born with a congenital defect that means their uterus does not form as it should.

MRKH doesn't affect men. It never affects men.

That's what biology says.

Congenital defects have nothing to do with transgenderism. If I were transgender, I'd be insulted that such a comparison is being drawn.

You could have a patient with MRKH who identifies as a straight woman, a gay woman, or as a transgender man. The existence of a congenital defect says nothing about either of these three sexual or gender identities.

Bannasidhe · 13-07-2022 10:58AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119330453#Comment_119330453

I recognise being disingenuous is your M.O. in these 'discussions' but perhaps just once you could deal with the actual substance of the point you are responding to.

In case you missed that point it was : There are enough instances when people are born without these alleged biological indicators that apparently determine who exactly is 'female' (uterus/cervix/vagina) to indicate biology is not the be all and end all some people - such as yourself- like to claim it is.

But interesting to see you now place a qualification of when biology doesn't count and dismiss 1 in 20,000 as 'defected'.

Bit rich given your posting history to suddenly be worried about transgender people being insulted.

13-07-2022 11:08AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119330508#Comment_119330508

I exactly answered that point.

The existence of congenital defects says nothing about sexual orientation or someone's self-perceived gender.

Nothing. Zero. Zilch.

It's a disingenuous attempt to muddy the waters.

There is no link, and never has been, no matter how many congenital defects you bring up.

Bannasidhe · 13-07-2022 11:20AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119330549#Comment_119330549

I never said either had anything to do with a person being either transgender or homosexual or bisexual tho did I?

No.

Yet here you charge in muddying the waters by claiming I did.

What I clearly questioned was when a poster stated the possession of certain body parts defines who is 'female' by demonstrating that there are literally millions of females born without these apparently all important body parts who nonetheless still grow up to be women.

Women you dismiss as defective.

SnazzyPig · 13-07-2022 11:23AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119330430#Comment_119330430

Surely it's time for Boards.ie to be shut down and the owners dragged before an Oireachtas Committee to explain their links to Trump,Putin and the Far Right.

13-07-2022 11:31AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119330608#Comment_119330608

You're trying to draw a subtle link between congenital malformations and transgender athletes - as a means to undermine what it means to be a woman and therefore who should be eligible to join the competitions.

These are the dots you're trying to connect, disingenuously and through sleight of hand, and I'm saying that those links cannot be drawn.

Men and women know already know which competition they belong to, because they're not transgender.

Those who identify as trans- (<0.5% of the population) are now being included in so-called 'open categories' as a means of accommodation.

Athletes with congenital defects are one group of people.
Transgender athletes are a second and separate group of people.

The open categories deals with the second group.

Almost everyone with defects know which category they belong to. In a tiny number of cases, a case-by-case approach may be needed, but that's about it.

There's nothing complicated about this.

Bannasidhe · 13-07-2022 11:54AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119330662#Comment_119330662

Once again for the hard of comprehending.

I responded to a post that claimed being female is determined by being born with certain body parts.

I pointed out that not all females are born with the listed body parts yet still are female and grow up to be women (some elect to get surgery to 'create' what biology failed to provide).

That's it. Your spluttering attempts to tell me what I am apparently saying simply shows you have zero response to the biological fact that not all women are born with a uterus/cervix/vagina but are undoubtedly biologically female.

There is nothing complicated about this.

Attempts to use body parts as an indication of what constitutes 'female' are a busted flush.

Biology is too complex to be shoehorned into a simplistic binary definition of gender identity (that by the way has been my only reference, albeit oblique, to gender dysphoria in this current exchange)

13-07-2022 12:07PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119330775#Comment_119330775

It's such a silly argument.

99.5% of the population are biologically male and female, and identify as such. True, some have congenital defects, some have had accidents and lost limbs or organs etc. Men have prostates removed due to cancer but they're still men. So reducing things to organs is actually irrelevant and just a distraction. They're still biologically men and women, and identify as such, and participate as men and women in athletic competitions.

The 0.5% who identify as trans- are a separate group who are being accommodated in open categories.

Bannasidhe · 13-07-2022 12:15PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119330846#Comment_119330846

I agree.

Using what body parts a person is born with to determine what gender they are is a silly argument.

Yet here we are in a thread where exactly that argument has been trotted out time and time again.

Bannasidhe · 13-07-2022 12:24PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119330614#Comment_119330614

Don't hyperventilate in your attempts to be hyperbolic there.

13-07-2022 12:25PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119330887#Comment_119330887

Sex, not gender.

I don't believe in the existence of objective gender, so I dismiss it accordingly.

Sex is objective, so let's stick with what's provable.

Bannasidhe · 13-07-2022 12:41PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119330942#Comment_119330942

Riiight.

So in a discussion about trans gender athletes we are not discussing gender but sex. Sex which is apparently defined by biology. Biology that consists of "'women' are born with certain body parts" - except that not all women are. That is provable.

And no-one has claimed biological sex can be changed - what has been said is the biological sex is incorrect and does not reflect the gender of the person thus afflicted. Biology made a boo-boo if you will. Do you believe in the existence of biological boo-boos?

No transwoman I have ever met claims to be biologically female - they know they are not. That is the issue.

Nor do they state their biological sex can be changed - much as they wish it could as then they would be happily cis, and safe from people like you. They want their gender to be reflective of who they are.

But you don't believe in 'objective gender' (whatever that word salad means) anyway so why do you care what gender people identify as?

13-07-2022 12:51PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119331026#Comment_119331026

If that's the case, then why do they advocate for Sex: ______________ on passports and birth certificates to be changed?

You've just conceded that sex cannot be changed, so there is no reason to change the above, yes?

UID0 · 13-07-2022 12:54PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119330608#Comment_119330608

At birth, it's generally looked at as if there are external male sex characteristics present, then the child is male and if they aren't, then the child is female or is referred for further testing if the external sex characteristics are sufficiently ambiguous. There isn't a check for female reproductive organs to determine if the child is female. There is, therefore, a much greater likelihood of a genetic male being assigned a female sex than the other way round. In the UK, this results in a higher percentage of the childhood referrals to the gender identity development service (Number of referrals to GIDS - Gender Identity Development Service) as ftm as opposed to mtf. This number of referrals is approximately equal between sexes up to age 10, and then female referrals increases massively suggesting that something that has occurred at the onset of/during puberty that has triggered the referral. There are no figures for a breakdown of adult mtf or ftm transgender people, but he closes I could find was in the US (USTS-Full-Report-Dec17.pdf (transequality.org)) which suggests a roughly equal ftm/mtf split (although it is hard to tell as the report groups trans/non-binary/intersex/other gender together, and more than one gender identity could be chosen by respondents), so there are more transwomen choosing to transition (socially/medically) in adulthood.

The thing is, though, that if a "male" child develops breasts and starts having a period during puberty, then having her gender recognised doesn't make her transgender - it is just correcting a mistake. She is still biologically female. She hasn't required any medical intervention to make her appear female or to subdue male characteristics. Also, rules such as FINA barring anyone who has undergone male puberty from competing in women's competitions won't apply here, as the competitor has not undergone male puberty.

This is different from a person who was identified as male and is biologically male and feels that they are a woman.

In sports, biology should be more important than feelings and gender identity. There are some sports where biological men have distinct advantages over biological women, and these advantages are retained by biological men even after transitioning. In these sports, transwomen should not be allowed to compete against women. In some sports, there are no advantages afforded by biology, and in these, there shouldn't be any restrictions on competition (in my opinion, in these sports, all competitions should be open entry).

Bannasidhe · 13-07-2022 01:30PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119331077#Comment_119331077

Not quite the gotcha you think it is. But sure if quibbling about the words used on documents whose formats haven't been changed in decades is the straw you wish to pearl clutch - off you go.

Why don't you ask the Irish govt why passports/birthcerts do not say gender given the Irish government recognises that biological sex and gender do not always align? You should get straight onto Helen McEntee about that. I'll back your call for it to be updated to reflect Irish legislation surrounding gender identity.

By the by, Why do we say 'mankind' when we mean all humans? Indeed, why are we 'human'? A word that some dictionaries claim has it's roots in 'homo' meaning 'man, however our genus is absolutely 'Homo' which does mean "man" - from the latin. Women didn't really count as far as the Romans were concerned - yet here we are, having failed utterly to update the language used to reflect existence of women (femina) as part of the ... um...human race... henceforth we should just use the word 'populuskind' or some derivative thereof. Or would there be an issue with a word meaning 'people'? Do you think that would indicate women are being erased - unlike in the word 'human' where women are... oh...hang on...

Gosh - aren't semantics fun!

Bannasidhe · 13-07-2022 01:34PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119331090#Comment_119331090

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119329840#Comment_119329840

You two should have a chat.

xxxxxxl appears to believe it's all down to the body parts.

13-07-2022 02:38PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119331232#Comment_119331232

I'm just going to treat that reply as one massive array of whataboutery and distraction.

Bannasidhe · 13-07-2022 02:59PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119331703#Comment_119331703

And I'll treat that as "I have no (even semi) credible response as I have failed to find any example of a transgender person claiming they can/have/will changed their biological sex, but have instead stated they wish to make changes (hormonal/surgical) so their incorrect body (in biological sex terms) more closely resembles their gender identity, so I'll fling out a few accusations"

Apparently pointing out no one has claimed biological sex can be changed is 'whataboutery' and 'distraction' in a thread about transgender athletes in which it is constantly stated that biological sex cannot be changed.

I agree. Biological sex cannot be changed. However, the human body can be adapted so that it more closely resembles a person's gender identity because science has worked out how to do that.

Labaik · 13-07-2022 04:44PM

I would of considered myself a bit left wing a few years back, but this is a sickness now of the left. What a deranged ideology.

https://twitter.com/ClayTravis/status/1546908189324607495?t=6XKrDARu5PZXCKwxv1yF4w&s=19

Overheal · 13-07-2022 05:00PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119330426#Comment_119330426

They were born with multiple sex organs. There is more than 2 biological chromosome pairings.

Overheal · 13-07-2022 05:03PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119330846#Comment_119330846

The United States has the Equal Protection Clause, not the 99.5% Protection Clause.

Bannasidhe · 13-07-2022 06:15PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119331908#Comment_119331908

a) You are not a mod in this forum so have no right to declare what is and is not relevant to any particular thread.

b) Kindly inform your fellow GCers that discussions on biological sex vs gender identity are not relevant to this thread as they are the ones who continue to introduce it. I merely responded to one of the latest "a woman is...*insert badly researched 'biology' here* " pieces of nonsense.

c) Yes, many people are arguing exactly that. Trans women are consonantly called "men" (in this thread) and dire warning issued about these "men" and how they are a threat to "women".

13-07-2022 06:23PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119332932#Comment_119332932

If you want my definition, a woman isn't a man and a woman isn't a trans woman.

A woman is what you're left with when you subtract those two populations from everyone else though.

And that's who should perform at women's sport.

Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

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