Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

Hold on, go back to what you said. You claimed that Fina now have a rule says female divisions are only for biological females. That statement was false. I've no idea how you you were aware FINA made a rule, and somehow managed to not know what the rules was. What I stated, some body questioned is the actual rule. Fact.

If you've imagined an option that is more completely opposite is irrelevant, it's semantics. The simple fact is what you, and other have claimed is untrue.

I've dodged you're question? WTF are you talking about. Can you point to single post where you directed a question at me? If I missed it my bad.

And that hypothetical swimmer who otherwise might have been there is now in a different heat. The places aren't capped. So nobody is excluded from competing, Which was that posters "issue". Females being prevented from competing. So if the trans-female is unplaced, and all the other females get to compete. They no longer have no issue. Until they invent something else

Well there's not infinite paces in anything obviously. But no, the places are not capped at X. That's not how it works. Fina has world champion standards that have to be met, subject to certain limits. It's entirely possible for a transathlete to compete and not exclude anyone.

As an example, as and Irish trans swimmer was a last minute qualifier for this years world championships. They join team Ireland and over they go to the world championships. The number of athletes in the championship increased to match qualifiers.

In that instance exclusion doesn't apply. I was asking if eskimohunt would have no issues in that instance. Supposedly they'd be ok with it. Where as I'm saying its not about hypothetical people might have been excludes, its about actual athletes who would have to compete agaisnt athletes who basically spent a decade blasting on copious amount of steroids.

I'm extremely interested to see how the third category works out. If the times posted are faster I predict a whole.load of deleted outrage..

Also very easy to not bother reading the thread. SMH.

Laurel Hubbard. Ha. If you actual read my post above you'll see I used them as an example above as somebody who retained an unfair advantage. They would have been excluded by a rule such as FINA's. That's the point. I'm literally the one arguing in favour of Fina's rule as it eliminates those unfair situations.

The "exclusion" angle doesn't cover it in the vast majority of cases. So if that's people's view, that should be ok with those cases. I'm skeptical.

as you say the data doesn't exist. Without that data how can they make an informed decision?

It is possible. That statement is 100% true. The fact other scenarios exist does not make it less true. I asked about that scenario for a reason. There was no answer of course because it didn’t fit their narrative.

It’s really not semantics. I stated the pre-puberty rule first. That is the rule. Somebody argued that only biological females can compete. The fact it’s mostly the doesn’t make the actual rule I stated incorrect.

Trans-athletes by their nature we’re already a tiny % of cases before the new rule. I think we’re on the same page in regardless how minor the pre puberty trans issue is. In terms of frequency and impact it’s close to zero

I understand what you are getting at. But it's not as if I was presenting it at 100% of cases. Or using that true statement to imply that that it never causes exclusion. Which is a logical fallacy. There's really no entire truth in logic. A statement it either true or false.

Or look at it this way, using your logic, saying it's possibly for transgender female athlete to exclude a biological female athlete is not the entire truth either. The idea that a statement must cover ever possible scenario to be an entire truth gets ridiculous quickly.

Sorry, missed this earlier. Not sure I follow you point. You are literally gave a hypothetical, and following it for no need for hypothetical. The irony

Yes there is a team cap, not an entrant cap. That doesn't make anything I said not true. It's possible for somebody to enter and take a slower qualifiers place, and its equally possible that they could qualify and take no place. If somebody only cares about exclusion, they should have no issue with the latter.

There are two arguments, the fairness one, or the exclusion one. Fina, have gone to with the fairness one. The two aren't really compatible, people are entitled to pick whatever they like, but doing so and picking and choosing only parts that suit their agenda it's pretty spineless.

Where did I say wasn't exclusion? Your reading comprehension is awful. It's possible for transgender athlete to compete without excluding anyone. If you still can't understand that, I realy can't help you.

Doesn't necessarily make it right, as hormones make it unfair. Hence more sensible people, ie Fina, support the fairness/hormone angle. The exclusion angle is full of holes, and people quick to drop it when it doesn't apply. It they can grasp it.

Fina still allow transgender men compete against men, and transgender women who haven't gone through puberty. Because there is no unfairness. Nothing to do with exclusion, as the above may or may exclude people. I agree with Fina's rule, if they can ensure no advantage in those cases.

I do find it pretty amusing that the ones entering events and making headlines are all MTF trans athletes.

One would have to assume that there are FTM trans athletes yet none of them are entering male competitions where physicality is a massive determining factor.

Pure coincidence I'm sure.