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Is the concept of an eternal hell for non-believers Not contrary to God’s merciful nature?

13

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,512 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    It's like the Clash song, "Know Your Rights"

    Number 3

    You have the right to free

    Speech as long as you're not

    Dumb enough to actually try it.

    That's what so-called "free will" under God feels like to a non-believer.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra,

    I'm raptured by the joy of it all.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,512 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Heaven and Hell are human constructs, but God is not?


    Mod: Lets not go down that rabbit hole, the existence of God is not up for debate in this forum.

    Post edited by looksee on

    I'm partial to your abracadabra,

    I'm raptured by the joy of it all.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,457 ✭✭✭Rigsby


    Indeed. It could also be very distressing knowing that perhaps a friend or loved one did not make the grade and get to "heaven" and so is damned to the fires of hell for all eternity.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,290 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Given that God allows hell which is essentially an infinite never ending torture, much worse than anything any human could ever do to any other human. Then this means that God doesn't oppose suffering, he only opposes suffering when he's not the one who directs it.

    God being omnipotent means he also controls hell. (Or allows it to happen)

    Oh. And 'sinners' do not choose hell even if they were told about it.

    If I order a vindaloo knowing that it's spicy and after one taste, I know its much too spicy for me. I can choose to not eat the rest. Only a sadist would force me to eat the entire curry because that was my 'choice'

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭growleaves


    I think classical theology is the reason Christians 'tie themselves up in knots'.

    For instance the assumption of God's omnipotence comes mainly from Greek metaphysics used as an interpreting 'frame' for the books of the Bible.

    Plato's "Timaeus" was the premier book for Christian scholars who lived during the middle ages. They created this incoherent mishmash of two supposedly 'compatible' belief systems (Greek philosophy and Christian religion).

    In the Platonic dialogue I mentioned Timaeus (a pagan) concludes that 'virtue' leads to some kind of blissful afterlife.

    I dislike Plato's clockwork reasoning about goodness and the afterlife. It seems to me in the wrong spirit because of how mechanical it is. And even now people think of God as an abstraction rather than as a god, and they're puzzling over how the pieces don't fit together.

    There is a whole different theological understanding about the nature of God in LDS (Mormon) theology. Terryl Givens' "The God Who Weeps" is a good, short introduction for anyone who's interested.

    In any case classical theological constructs about God's nature are not at the core of Christianity. Following Jesus Christ is, and resurrection from the dead is.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,395 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Indeed, you can believe in 'God' and fully accept that it/he/she exists.

    That doesn't mean though that you have to believe in any concepts like heaven or hell. One doesn't follow from the other.



  • Posts: 7,946 [Deleted User]


    Is there any Christian alive that doesn't believe in 'a heaven'?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,395 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Doubtless many people hope for 'a heaven' but do they believe in it fully? Live a good Christian life and heaven will be your reward. Praise be to Allah and join your ancestors in Jannah. Concepts of heaven & hell are clearly social constructs.

    So you can believe in a God and hope for heaven but then you have to wait to find out.



  • Posts: 7,946 [Deleted User]


    I can understand believing in God, and not necessarily believing in Heaven. But can't get my head around a believing Christian not believing in heaven (whether or not they think they'll get there).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,457 ✭✭✭Rigsby


    I agree. What would be the purpose of a Christian believing in God if it was not to reap the reward of heaven? I always assumed Christians believed that this life was a kind of test run to get as many "brownie points" as is necessary to enter heaven.



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  • Posts: 7,946 [Deleted User]


    That and it's probably not compatible to be a believing Christian and not believing in heaven. It being pretty much the purpose of Christ.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,395 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Why, what has heaven really got to do with living a good Christian life? Do you think that people will only do things if they are promised rewards? Given little stars to pin on their exercise books? That's a pretty sad view of humanity and Christianity or any religion.

    You can believe in God and live a good Christian life and have no expectation of heaven or hell or anything else for that matter. To live such a life is a reward in itself.



  • Posts: 7,946 [Deleted User]


    You're mixing up a lot of things there. You can ape a Christian life, but you'd not be a Christian. I'm referring to actual, cross carrying, Christians. It's impossible to be an actual Christian and not believe in Heaven. Jesus sacrificed himself (they believe) so they could go to heaven. It's a basic tenant of being a Christian.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,457 ✭✭✭Rigsby


    Furze99 said:

    "Do you think that people will only do things if they are promised rewards? Given little stars to pin on their exercise books?"


    I think people will go to great lengths to gain rewards. Indulgences (granted they are seldom used these days) were extremely popular down through the ages.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,759 ✭✭✭weisses


    There are certain ways to keep a following. One of them is to scare the **** out of people to keep them on the straight and narrow. Introducing hell only makes sense in that regard



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,789 ✭✭✭SuperBowserWorld


    I think you have to believe a religion fully or not believe it at all. If parts are illogical then, you can become a scholar of that religion and get a career out of it. You might get a well paid role in some university studying it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,395 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    So what do you think of 'a la carte' Catholics? Are they Christians? And who gets to decide anyway.

    You can believe in God, follow a particular religion as in Christianity. But also not just blindly accept all the doctrine and rhetoric that goes with it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,457 ✭✭✭Rigsby


    If you don't want to blindly accept doctrine then why follow a religion at all ? Is it not possible to live a decent moral life without it ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,395 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    For community. People of a feather flock together. Religion is a social glue that connects people in a community and gives a structure to life. That doesn't mean though that all people who ascribe to a particular religion have to adhere or believe in all the doctrine. Individuality.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 352 ✭✭Snugbugrug28


    I would say the concept of mercy is contrary to Gods terrifying nature



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,002 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Isn't that kind of individuality completely against the fundamentals of all churches though, in theory at least?

    People get community through all kinds of glues, sports, politics, locality. Religion doesn't have a monopoly on this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,395 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Yes maybe, but when were humans ever perfect or even logical?

    Even within the officers, the priests of any religion there is clearly considerable variation in individuality as regards the dogma and doctrine, including as to what heaven, hell and purgatory are and so on.



  • Posts: 7,946 [Deleted User]


    The doctrine of the church, it's fairly simple and there's been numerous schisms of Christianity. Can you point out any that don't believe in heaven.

    What do I think of 'a la carte' Catholics. I don't think about them at all.



  • Posts: 7,946 [Deleted User]


    "Yes maybe, but when were humans ever perfect or even logical?"

    That would have been the garden of Eden, right up to the point where Eve heard the saying about, 'An apple a day keeps the doctor away.' She obviously didn't know what a doctor was, but did, allegedly say, 'Ah, what the hell.'



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 183 ✭✭monara


    We cannot prove the existence of God but we can show that it is reasonable to believe in His existence; we cannot for that matter prove that we ourselves exist except within the context of time which for most of us will cease to exist within 80 to 100 years.

    To have the existence of God depending on our beliefs requires a serious consideration of the power of human faith, and its power to merge the believer with the object of his belief.



  • Posts: 7,946 [Deleted User]


    '...but we can show that it is reasonable to believe in His existence' Would gladly discuss this, but I don't think it's allowed here so I'll just add... I don't see how that's the case.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,920 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Mod note: Agreed, this is not really the forum for discussing the existence of God. The forum charter specifically forbids overt or subtle attack on the Christian faith which would make such discussion rather difficult. Better held on the A&A forum where no such rules apply.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,258 ✭✭✭Thinkingaboutit


    There is the concept of Apocastasis, taught of St Gregory of Nyssa and others that all eventually will attain salvation, but for most there might be some degree of punishment, not as sadism, but to separate the good and bad in every soul. It is something of a minority opinion, but Bishop Robert Barron and other others have considered it.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    No it is not, " a major personal sacrifice"... Not a sacrifice at all. And there has to be careful and skilled discernment. And it is a deep fulfilment like no other.. With no regrets.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    God or Jesus? Jesus IS God and He speaks of heaven.



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