Is the concept of an eternal hell for non-believers Not contrary to God’s merciful nature?

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118977391#Comment_118977391

Agreed, though I'd suggest those limits are closer to what we can imagine than what we can comprehend. What we can imagine need not be rooted in reality. On the road to discovery, imagination often precedes understanding as can be seen in the works of many great minds throughout human history.

JayPS 2288

Would existing for eternity in heaven not also start to become boring?

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118977457#Comment_118977457

I haven't said that we can't comprehend the afterlife; just that, if we can't comprehend something, that does not logically suggest that it cannot be real.

As it happens, we clearly can comprehend the afterlife to at least some extent, because here we are having a meaningful discussion about it. We couldn't do that if we didn't have a shared comprehension of what the word "afterlife" refers to.

But, granted, much about (our notion of) the afterlife remains speculative, or unknown, or difficult to picture, and the Christian tradition acknowledges this. (St. Paul makes this very point.) So your question is not without merit. Why would God offer us an afterlife that we can only party or hazily understand, and then invite us to make a once-and-for-all choice about it?

In the mainstream Christian tradition, God doesn't really ask us to make that choice. It's a modern, non-Christian and, dare I say it, basically capitalist caricature of the Christian faith to see it as a market transaction in which you must decide whether to pay a fixed price goods of uncertain quality and utility, that you don't really know what they are.

As already pointed out, the Old Testament has virtually nothing to say about the afterlife, one way or another. There is no promise of salvation or threat of damnation and, whatever reasons there might be for obeying the commandments, a bargain in which you get eternal bliss in the afterlife is not one of them. Such a thing is never suggested. Nor is there any threat of eternal fire, etc, if you don't obey. The fundamental reason for obeying the commandments is — that's the right and good way for you to live (if you're a Jew, obviously). If you live this way there is an expectation that good things will flow from that, but they are good things in this world - fulfilment, happiness, long life, the esteem of the community, etc. The best that you are ever promised for after your death is numerous descendants and a reputation that outlasts you. And none of this is presented as the reason why you should live that way; they are just consequences expected to result when people live in alignment with the natural and moral order, rather than in opposition to it.

Right. Christianity develops this in a couple of directions. First, it takes on board the notion of an afterlife (which was coming into Jewish thinking at the time) and really runs with it. It does this because of the centrality it assigns to its belief in the resurrection of Christ, and its associated belief in general resurrection. Death is not the end! Eternal life is a real thing! Secondly, it takes the Jewish notion that living in harmony with the natural and moral order will be good for you in this life and applies it to eternal life. It's only in eternal life that you can fully become the most perfect version of the creature that God created you to be. So you can't know true happiness, true fulfilment, etc in this life; only in the next. Right now you can only experience pale shadows of such things.

But, again, this is not a bargain, a swap — eternal bliss in return for your faith (or your works). Rather, believing and living in accordance with God's plan is the way in which you become the person that God planned you to be. Because you have free will you don't have to become that person. And, if you choose not to, then you won't — not as a punishment, but as the working out of your choice. The choice you're invited to make is not "Do I want a prime spot in heaven?" but "How do I want to live? What truth, what values, do I want to devote myself to, do I want my life to illustrate?" It's obvious that the choice you make about questions like that is going to affect the person you become, the life you experience, etc. And, if you believe in an afterlife, why wouldn't it affect the person you are, or the life you lead, in that afterlife? Being free to make the choice necessarily involves the freedom to make the choice which harms you or limits you.

Right. If you're a Christian that choice is wholly wrapped up in the person of Jesus Christ. The choice to follow Jesus is the choice to accept the truths and values that he taught - faith in God; a rejection of power and wealth as the centre of your life in favour of a life of love; an embrace of vulnerability; a commitment to justice and to service of others; etc, etc - you can read the gospels for yourself. If you profess to be a Christian but in fact place your faith in power, wealth, oppression, selfishness, etc - well, the choice you make is reflected in your deeds as much as , or more than, in your words.

If you're not a Christian you don't see the choice in those terms of Jesus Christ, obviously, but you still get to make the choice — it's part of the human condition. Just as it's not difficult to find examples of apparent Christians who put their faith in power, wealth, etc so it's not difficult to find non-Christians who make the opposite choice. The Christian tradition would say of those non-Christians that, by making those choices they are, unbeknownst to themselves, in search of the God they do not yet know, and that God will respond to them. Which you might think is a little bit patronising, but it's an answer to the objection that the Christian concept of God and the salvation he offers is cruel or arbitrary.

JayPS 2288

Think of it this way. The punishment one receives is usually (or should be) proportional to the severity of the crime one commits.

If I steal, I might get a Garda caution.

If I smuggle drugs, I might be six months.

If I rape, I might get 5 years.

If I murder, I might get 10….

And so on.

So what transgressions committed by myself are worthy of an eternity in Hell?

Secondly, if salvation is only possible through the redemption of Christ, and everyone goes to Hell if they reject this redemption, does that mean the default position is for everyone to go to Hell unless saved otherwise?

What happens to people who never heard of Jesus? Are they saved by default? What if a missionary spreads the word and the person rejects? Would it not be better not to spread the message thereby giving people an opportunity to reject Jesus?

indioblack

The example of the death of a young child and an elderly adult, and their experience after death , was a debate I remember from years ago on Boards.

The elderly person had the possibility of many routes in his or her life - the young child simply had not.

I wondered at the time how these two persons could be assessed/ judged to the same standard.

Loafing Oaf

This man summed up the OP's paradox perfectly

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118966308#Comment_118966308

Merciful? Love me or burn for eternity. Remember, you have until the moment you die to be in my good books, and I ain't telling you when that is.

homer911

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119026245#Comment_119026245

That's a real glass-half-empty way of looking at it. Yes indeed, merciful. God is offering the most wonderful gift you could ever possibly imagine, you lose nothing by following him. He gives you a lifetime (however long or short) to accept his gift and begin a new life with him, why would you turn that down?

BTW, you are quite right, there is no obtaining sanctification before God after you die. No amount of prayers from your loved ones will grant you salvation after you die, if you have not accepted it before you die

I find your response a conundrum, you clearly reject God, so given your options, you choose to "burn for eternity" as you put it. Well you can't say you were not warned

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119042233#Comment_119042233

'Why would you turn that down', you ask. Why would you turn down the opportunity to reach paradise by following the Zoroastrianism gods? The word paradise comes from their religion.

The simple answer is that for a lot of us we don't believe in any god (there's no proof - I know you wont agree with this). But, if we were to believe in any god (we likely wont) why believe in a particular god. You speak with full knowledge that god exists, that must give a great feeling, which is somewhat envious. However, I'd hate to live my life thinking, will (insert god of choice here) be displeased with my actions. It's one life (from my perspective) - and would hate to be 'enslaved' to a certain way of acting. So, I don't envy you that.

BTW, don't think because I don't follow a religion that I don't act morally. I do my best, why? because I have empathy and wish to have a good night's sleep.

smacl

you lose nothing by following him

This would imply the faithful make no personal sacrifices for their faith which I would argue is not the case. Catholic clergy for example forego sexual intimacy, marriage and raising a family. Most religiously inclined people devote a significant amount of their lifetime to religious observance and are often obliged to adhere to an ethos and morality that might run contrary to their personal preference and changing social norms. I guess much of this rests on the particular church you belong to and how that shapes your religious observance.

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058242933/is-the-concept-of-an-eternal-hell-for-non-believers-not-contrary-to-god-s-merciful-nature

where do they send christian hypocrites... i know a few of these...

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119042233#Comment_119042233

It's not that I reject God. I simply do not believe that there is evidence that God exists.

I will be as shocked as anyone if I end up in hell post mortem

I cannot choose to believe in something that is not convincing. I could pretend to, but presumably God would know my true thoughts on the matter.

I have examined this very carefully and nobody has shown me anything that is sufficient to convince me. (Including God himself)

looksee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119065971#Comment_119065971

you step forward believing that still no cars coming. 

And you could be wrong. If you don't keep looking and paying attention there could easily be a car. Belief doesn't cut it, knowledge is what matters.

I don't understand your second paragraph, I think I get the gist of what you are saying, that is not sufficient to understand it. Maybe you could re-phrase it?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119042233#Comment_119042233

You do lose quite a bit of time in following him, all those hours spent in draughty buildings adoring him- he seems very needy for an all powerful being.

looksee

Think about the second paragph, you will see.

That entirely fails to be an argument; I thought about it when I wrote my first response and concluded that it is not even coherent English, I was trying to be polite about it.

Similarly I would not dream of using your syndrome name as, without explanation, it is meaningless.

homer911

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119043294#Comment_119043294

If you are looking for irrefutable evidence, what room does that leave for faith?

homer911

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119066187#Comment_119066187

Actually our church is very well heated 😊

Worship is about saying thanks, its definitely not about feeding God's ego (cant imagine he has one!)

homer911

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119042411#Comment_119042411

What I meant was.. What you gain in reality is far greater than what you think you might lose (and you mainly lose the stuff we can all do without)

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119086145#Comment_119086145

I don't see the value in having faith in the existence of something

Sometimes we have to put our faith in people, that they will honour their promises to us, but if faith is required just to believe they exist then its something I cannot be convinced by

An omnipotent God could easily prove his existence beyond a reasonable doubt, we would still need to have faith in his character, but at least we'd know he's real

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119086160#Comment_119086160

My feeling is that those who sacrifice the possibility of family and intimacy for the sake of their faith quite often find that this not something they can do without. Whatever about it perhaps being ultimately rewarding, I would certainly consider it major personal sacrifice.

homer911

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119086762#Comment_119086762

I would not disagree with you, sometimes I forget about the Catholic perspective

Reg'stoy

What really amuses me, is the knots christians tie themselves up in, trying to explain who does and doesn't go to hell. I have read elsewhere, that we don't gain salvation by our deeds, so even though as an atheist, I may do charitable works, save lives, generally live a good life, this won't count for squat, in reaching heaven. Now, someone who has accepted jesus as their lord and master, may be the most selfish person, do nothing to help their fellow man, but because they have high fived and stated "you the man jesus", poof they wake up in heaven. They don't have to live the example of jesus, like an atheist may do, they only have to accept him.

Other christians, the ones slightly embarrassed by the theology above, accept that living a good life, would be enough for a god to give them a golden ticket. All the discussion, about who does or doesn't get in, means, that christians are really just throwing Pascal's dice, and wagering that they picked the NT god, rather than the OT god, and the people they love who don't believe, will hopefully be 'saved'.

The best statement re heaven, that I have read is; you couldn't possibly be happy for eternity, knowing a loved one is in hell, being tortured for eternity, you'd know this, because they were not in heaven. So god must, either make you forget your friends and family, or make you not care about them, either way, you are not the same person who died (god has either wiped your memory, or changed your personality), so what was the point in testing you for your time on earth, to see if you were worthy of saving.

Rigsby

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118977537#Comment_118977537

If he TRUELY loved us, as Christians claim he does, then even if we did reject him he would not punish us. Is he not supposed to be all forgiving ?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119157737#Comment_119157737

Depends… on whether God is feeling New or Old Testamenty. Managing creation is tough, even if you are omnipotent.

Furze99

I've always understood the concept of eternal hell to be a societal construct in order to help keep people in line. To be 'good' citizens'.

Looked at like that, it's makes right sense.

Rigsby

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119157993#Comment_119157993

Did god not create people with a free will, i.e. the ability to think and choose for themselves ? If so, then why punish them for making their own choices? It seems he would have saved himself the hassle of keeping them in line if he had pre programmed them to be "good citizens". It seems cruel to create people with a free will, only to punish them for not doing what he wants.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119158893#Comment_119158893

Because 'God' didn't invent the concept of hell or heaven. These are human concepts concerned with the practice of religion & managing society, not the belief in 'God'.

growleaves

Would you choose to go to heaven if you could go?

Because lots of Christians don't think 'non-believers' are barred from heaven. But if you don't even want to go to heaven you aren't likely to end up there. So the most important first step is wanting to go to heaven.

If you do have a chance to follow Jesus Christ after death, a lifetime of rejecting Jesus Christ isn't a great preparation for that.

When people talk about 'being bored' in heaven that's not a good sign. Some people are seemingly afraid that eternal life will be an unending, unbearable continuation of existence now. I don't think that's how it will be. We will be transformed from pain and sin and doing ongoing creative work (like painting the Sistine Chapel but on a cosmic scale). You'll have a resurrected body rather than be a disembodied spirit (see the Gospel of John).

Finally I would say if you don't like 'organised religion' then practice unorganised religion. Be an independent Christian, if that's what it takes. Follow Jesus Christ but instead of obeying a church be a 'church of one' then you won't have anyone to blame but yourself if it becomes another corrupt church. You'll be taking responsibility for your own spiritual direction.

You have a conscience, you have scriptures and guidance from the Holy Spirit. You have everything you need.

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

growleaves

By the way I'm not saying that you shouldn't join a church. It may be better for you if you do, and you may prefer it. I'm just trying to kick away a stumbling block that a lot of people have.

Not wanting to carry around Irish Catholic-Protestant historical baggage or be led by bishops you don't trust or think much of shouldn't stop you from becoming a Christian. If you're fiercely independent stay that way become but be one-man Christian church as well.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119125221#Comment_119125221

You could be literally Hitler and do the old deathbed shenanigans and all is forgiven. I don't want to spend eternity in a place where there's even the remotest possibility of the likes of him getting in, tyvm.