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All Ireland Senior Hurling Championships Lower Tier 2022 (JM,CR,NR, LM Cups)

2

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,337 ✭✭✭keeponhurling


    If Kerry win, should they automatically go into the Munster championship ?

    I know currently they need to play the bottom ranked Munster team in a play-off (so Tipp, based on this year)

    Realistically they aren't at the level of the other 5 Munster teams. But then again, if they are to ever come back to senior, if not now then when ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,448 ✭✭✭legendary.xix


    If you win a lower tier, you should be permitted to enter a higher tier. There will be difficult matches for sure but there are learnings from that.

    There are 2 options:

    1. Munster winner determining the province that has 6 teams for a year.

    Or else:

    2. If Kerry ever win the McDonagh Cup, Munster should expand to 6 teams for a year, with the McDonagh reducing to 5. After 1 year of a 6 team Munster Championship, whoever finishes 6th should be relegated to the McDonagh.


    These 2 options provide a pathway for fairness for everyone.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,128 ✭✭✭Fattybojangles


    Shouldn't the winner of the Joe McDonagh just automatically go into Leinster and replace the bottom team there? If Antrim can be in Leinster then why can't Kerry? Surely to God it would bring them on in a competition where they could realistically win a game or 2? The fact they have to play a play off they could never win is a disgrace.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,027 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    They don't need to go to Leinster. There are 2 perfectly reasonable ways to have them in Munster in the post above your own.

    As for bringing them on I think moving them to Leinster and dragging the team all over the country in the process isn't worth it for the 1 game they might win.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,128 ✭✭✭Fattybojangles


    They could go to Munster alright but they'll just be beat out the gate 5 times and they'll still have to travel. In Leinster they'd be playing the likes of Westmeath Laois Wexford Dublin etc games they'd have a real shot of winning and progressing they'd be humped in Munster.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,448 ✭✭✭legendary.xix


    Every province should have some threat of relegation. If Kerry are good enough some year to win the McDonagh, they should just simply be allowed to enter Munster as the 6th team. After a year then, relegate whoever finishes 6th. Most likely Kerry of course after 5 incredibly difficult games. At least Kerry will be returning to the McDonagh with invaluable experience.

    We have seen firsthand the benefit Westmeath and Antrim have gotten from playing at a higher level.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,027 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    They would most likely be fighting it out with either Laois or Westmeath for relegation not both as one would be relegated.

    At lets be honest how far will it really progress them. Will beating the weaker Leinster teams make them good enough to beat the better ones.

    As for travel there is a huge huge difference between Kerry to Limerick, Ennis and Cork compared to Galway, Dublin and Wexford



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,337 ✭✭✭keeponhurling




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,128 ✭✭✭Fattybojangles


    The standard in Munster is way higher than the standard in Leinster I agree that if Kerry win Joe McDonagh they should be promoted but I'd argue Leinster gives them a much better chance to play at a higher level for longer. The benefits Westmeath and Antrim have got have been from Leinster 5 hammerings in Munster would not be of the same benefit.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,448 ✭✭✭legendary.xix


    I wouldn't want Kerry competing with Westmeath, Laois or Antrim for the right to remain in the Leinster Championship. There must be a Munster solution to a Munster problem.

    Antrim and Offaly have the potential to close the gap to the Leinster top 4. It's going to take a few years. It'll be a great sign of progress in years to come if Leinster have to consider an expansion to 8.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,128 ✭✭✭Fattybojangles


    IMO the jump in standard from Joe Mc to Munster championship is so huge its impossible for Kerry to be competitive in 1 year whereas in Leinster I genuinely belief they would be competitive.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,448 ✭✭✭legendary.xix


    If Kerry were playing Westmeath I Leinster next year, it's a softer landing for sure.

    If we win the McDonagh some year however, we should step up to the Munster and compete as best we can. People have to use their Sporting Intelligence to be understanding of difficult results in the context of promotion on merit and the opportunity to learn.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,027 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Competitive with one other team for the relegation spot. Wow



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,448 ✭✭✭legendary.xix


    Fattybojangles is correct. Laois and Westmeath had a fair shot to remain in the Leinster Championship. Westmeath now get to remain in Leinster for another year. It's positive for their development to have that opportunity. It's difficult for someone in a Top 9 county to appreciate that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,128 ✭✭✭Fattybojangles


    What's your solution? 5 hammerings in Munster? The continuation of the unfair play off?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,839 ✭✭✭✭callaway92


    If Munster ever gets moved away from being part of the All-Ireland qualification, then Kerry will be put into it probably



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,027 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    My solution is to completely stop thinking about championship and league structures as a quick fix to bring "weak" teams on. We are forever messing around with formats in hurling and as for making weak teams strong it does sweet fk all.

    Money and expertise will make those teams better. Targeted "professional" help at school and underage level from HQ and taken out of the hands of CBs.

    We are forever jumping from "need to play own level to progress" to "need to play big boys " and back again but it's all just pssing into the wind.

    In the short term Munster and Leinster are technically an equal billing and Leinster isn't a step between JoeMcD and Munster so ya they should play in Munster.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,448 ✭✭✭legendary.xix


    On the final itself, Antrim are rightly favourites. Outside the Top 9, Westmeath, Laois and Antrim have been consistently the best of the rest. Kerry, Offaly and Carlow aren't too far behind to be fair.

    Antrim and Westmeath have shown evidence of lessons learned from playing the Top 9. Kerry have to learn the lessons from Antrim and Westmeath, and bring them into the final.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,128 ✭✭✭Fattybojangles


    Yeah I'd agree with that on a rather more depressing note there's a big article in the indo complaining about Kerry players not being available for comment to local media.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,016 ✭✭✭cute geoge


    If you want to mix with Kerry fans ,try joxer dalys in dorset st.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,869 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    I always laugh at the "logic" of adding ever more teams to the upper tier to "make it competitive".

    When Leinster was 5 teams, 1 team was always going to be weaker than Dublin, Wexford, Kilkenny and Galway. The "solution" to this was to add a 6th team. This meant that the 5th team could then beat the 6th and people could then claim they are "making progress" and "competing at the higher level". Totally ignoring the fact that their "achievement" was to beat a team whose sole reason for being in the division was to ensure someone won a game.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,337 ✭✭✭keeponhurling




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,448 ✭✭✭legendary.xix


    6 teams in Leinster gives a team outside of the Top 9 an opportunity to establish themselves in the Leinster Championship. Antrim are targeting promotion this year and Westmeath's perch next year. The challenge then is to use that platform to close the gap on those above.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,128 ✭✭✭Fattybojangles


    Sure if they adopted your attitude none of the lower teams would ever get any better Westmeath now have a chance to establish themselves as a Leinster championship team after beating Laois and drawing with Wexford this shows progression why in Gods name would you want to hinder that?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,016 ✭✭✭cute geoge


    Surely if Kerry were to win the joe mac ,the leinster championship would be the springboard for them for further progession .The jump to the munster championship just is too big .Surely if Antrim and Galway compete in Lenster what should stop Kerry from playing lenster championship if they win saturday



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,448 ✭✭✭legendary.xix




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,448 ✭✭✭legendary.xix


    If the double shock of the century were to happen that Kerry win the McDonagh and win the Relegation Play-Off , a Tipperary newspaper doesn't expect to see Tipperary being relegated!




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,448 ✭✭✭legendary.xix


    The Antrim perspective as they target a return to the Leinster Championship.



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    In reality if Kerry keep Antrim close, they've done very well, as the gap between them is as big as the last time they met in a final. Although Antrim's physicality was the main difference that day I thought, albeit in a poor enough game.

    It's a complete waste of time sending Kerry against Tipperary or any other team in Munster and multiple thrashings teach you one thing really more than anything else, how to lose!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 673 ✭✭✭supernova5


    I expect Kerry to give Antrim loads of bother, wouldn't be in the least surprised if they beat them.

    Antrim are historically very vulnerable under any kind of expectation and don't handle the big occasion very well



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,885 ✭✭✭✭PTH2009


    True the 2020 final was different with the empty stadium and both teams had chances that day. Kerrys 3rd final I think

    Do hope Kerry win and hopefully some sense prevails with none of this relagation/promotion bollocks and they will be added to the Munster Championship making both provincial championships 6 teams each

    Like how could Kerry players motivate themselves for next year knowing that there Joe McDonagh Champions but not promoted. Going around in circles

    Tbh the other 5 Munster counties would be happy with the extra game



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,448 ✭✭✭legendary.xix


    Kerry have been down this road before. We won Division 2A and then lost to Offaly,who had finished bottom of 1B, in a play-off. After some negative media scrutiny, those playoff were eventually scrapped. This relegation playoff to the Munster Championship is a relic from that era of protectionism.



  • Registered Users Posts: 94 ✭✭CornerForward10286


    If Antrim win, they're in leinster next year and laois relegated, ye?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 185 ✭✭mitchelsontour


    The journalist in question failed to acknowledge that the Kerry hurlers have trained at each of the hurling clubs during the year and been available to the kids after each training session. He also said that the Eric Leen had traveled up to Dublin just for the event, when in fact he is a Dublin based teacher.

    The management made themselves available for media and didn't want the players distracted.

    Don't know what his agenda is writing an article like that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 968 ✭✭✭conor05


    One of the worst sports editors in Ireland that chap. His articles down in Kerry are so poorly researched its embarrassing.

    Anyway my suggestion would be in Kerry win the Joe McDonagh cup they get a 3 year no relegation trial in the Munster championship with all their games played in either Killarney or Tralee.

    It would give them a few big days out, generate interest among the next generation in Kerry and they might take a scalp in year 2 or 3.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,027 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Would be a terrible idea not to give them any away days they can be the most fun ones. Also if they get 3 years everyone will want it and the whole JoeMcD falls apart. On top of all that there is little to suggest any scalp will be taken.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,099 ✭✭✭✭Mantis Toboggan


    Would kerry not be better off staying in the Joe Mc and being very competitive? Final this weekend and a trip to Croker, they won't get that at senior.

    If they're going really well then a year in Munster but it's no fun to take alot of hammerings over the years. Once they're able to go toe to toe with the munster teams underage then it's time to integrate them, but you don't want the munster championship turning into the Leinster championship where the winning team is known even before a ball is thrown in.

    Free Palestine 🇵🇸



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,448 ✭✭✭legendary.xix


    3 years is too generous. If Kerry ever win the McDonagh Cup, being permitted to join the Munster Championship as the 6th for 1 year would be a fair reward. Whoever finishes 6th at the end of that year should be relegated. If not, the provincial round robin isn't fit for purpose and should be replaced by an All-Ireland group stage that can agree on relegation.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,108 ✭✭✭✭sligeach


    What a great Joe McDonagh Cup final. Fair play to both Antrim and Kerry. Kerry 10 points down at halftime, 11 points down still after 46 minutes and lost by a single point in the end. That penalty and resulting black card(very harsh) for Kerry cost them dearly when they were in the ascendency with ~15 minutes left. Galway and Kilkenny have a tough act to follow.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,448 ✭✭✭legendary.xix


    Incredible effort by Kerry. Congratulations Antrim.



  • Registered Users Posts: 968 ✭✭✭conor05


    And the phantom free that Antrim got and scored near the end.

    You'd always think the powers that be didnt want Kerry to win!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,448 ✭✭✭legendary.xix


    The powers that be are doing everything to keep Kerry out. Disgraceful.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,131 ✭✭✭Billy Ocean


    Can't see it happening but would love Kerry to be part of a 6 team Munster championship next year same as Leinster, looking at Munster in the last few years there's been plenty of 1 sided games involving the 'big 5' so wouldn't read much into the canon fodder argument.



  • Registered Users Posts: 968 ✭✭✭conor05


    The way Waterford played in the last game v Clare, Kerry would have gave Waterford a right game of it.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 21 teamddr


    Are you serious, Kerry got one soft free after the other for the whole match. Check out the penalty that never was.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,448 ✭✭✭legendary.xix


    Kerry were robbed, despite shooting ourselves in the foot as well. Is it common in Dublin hurling circles to award a free to a player who falls over himself??!!



  • Registered Users Posts: 21 teamddr


    your High you have to be. The amount of soft frees Kerry got in first half was disgraceful. That penalty was a joke



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,016 ✭✭✭cute geoge


    Overall kerry are improving every year ,It is a mighty achievement by Kerry to get to 3 finals of the joe mac .There is a grand total of 8 senior hurling clubs in a small pocket of north Kerry in total to this year .Great to see players from new Tralee club and Dr.crokes make the brealtrough onto the team panel .We will see kerry winning the Joe mac cup within a year or two but what then after .Into muster to be whipping boys .Lenster championship hurling would be more suitable for Kerry progress .

    They will give wexford a run for their money in the next game



  • Registered Users Posts: 968 ✭✭✭conor05


    Climb down off the bar stool will you, the ref allowed you to play against 14 men for the last 10 minutes and it still took a mysterious phantom free from a diabolical ref to put away Kerry.



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