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Should we limit the number of TDs to 160

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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,585 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I agree we need a much more robust regional Gov with real powers and responsibilities. If such devolution happened, then the TDs will have less need to play the parish pump projects, but many will still perform those actions under the impression it helps their political future.

    It would make fewer TDs a natural result of that devolution - and 160 would be a good number.



  • Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    You need a referendum first and that's sounds like one that wouldn't have a prayer. What government would approve a referendum anyway?



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,585 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Well they put through the Senate referendum which did not pass through a big anti campaign. So who knows - if it had popular support, why would they not?



  • Registered Users Posts: 247 ✭✭hayse


    They could cull the Healy Rae’s and a few more of their like.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,585 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Unfortunately, the HR clan are fully embedded in the political system, from TD to Kerry County Councillor, and even subcontractor to the said council. A true family involvement.

    They have a solid base as a result of the pubs they own and run, plus no doubt other enterprises. They have incredible name recognition in their home area, and outside it unfortunately.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 25,150 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    TDs should be limited.

    if the population is growing at a rate where things are too busy for the 160 TDs… then address the problem(s) of population growth.

    should the taxpayers be burdened along with giving a dig out to xxx,xxx people from around the world in apparent difficulties… also be required to spend millions on acquiring land, building a brand new parliament and associated infrastructure and supports ? millions more over a decade on paying wages for extra TDs and their expenses ?



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,585 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    If we do not have a slimmed down number of TDs, then we should only elect slimmed down TDs that fit into the smaller seats required to seat all those extra ones.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,175 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Racist BS trying to appear anything but. Thank heavens the majority of voters have a superior intellect and sense of humanity.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,150 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    I’m not going to reply to the racism accusation… seeing as you apparently have no understanding of the term…there is not really any point.

    the majority of voters with superior intellect and sense humanity can decide in a few years when their wellbeing and access to services like healthcare, housing etc, medical cards is such a pipe dream thanks to what’s been ..happening and about to… a new parliament with shîtloads more representatives, more admin, more cost to the exchequer… when a functional parliament was in existence…. Foolhardy… and expensive.



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,545 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    There's absolutely no reason why an expanding population should lead to worse services.

    What happened in the UK was a needless decade of Tory austerity, then non-Brits got blamed for the inevitable consequences even though many of them were keeping health and social services afloat 🙄

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,483 ✭✭✭touts


    Whatever they do they need to make sure the population per TD is even. Was it in the last election or the one before where something like 7 candidates in Tipperary got a first preference vote that would have exceeded the quota in Dublin Central on the first count. 160 TDs is probably enough but there needs to be less of a bias towards Dublin in the way the numbers are allocated.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,438 ✭✭✭McGiver



    If it is the business of a LA (or regional assembly) to maintain the roads that are not designated National Primary Routes - the it is the LA that does this and a TD would have no impact on it whatsoever. The matters that should be controlled locally should be dealt by a regional assembly at a level between the current county council and the Dail. There should be five or six of them and they should deal with most (all) of the day to day affairs such as health, education, gardai that would be arranged to align with those assemblies. Of course there would be overall control by the Dail and the Minister responsible in matters of legislation, budget, governance, and such matters.

    Exactly. How it works in all EU countries (+UK). I have no clue why it doesn't, can't work in Ireland or is even objected to by many (some?)...🤨



  • Registered Users Posts: 247 ✭✭hayse




  • Registered Users Posts: 696 ✭✭✭Oscar Madison


    Way too many for the size of the country we live in.

    Too many snouts in the trough!


    TDs & Senators – Houses of the Oireachtas



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,585 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    There are three to five TDs per constituency. The constituency boundaries are adjusted to make sure that the voters per TD remains even. The quota for a TD to get elected depends on the number of voters per TD and then upon turnout in each constituency.

    Could you give an actual example of a constituency that has a low quota in Dublin and another in a Tip constituency that has candidates getting higher votes than that? Low turnouts can give rise to that, but I doubt that it is widespread.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,585 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell



    That is nonsense.

    The TDs were once allowed the dual mandate - TD plus county councillor. That was abolished a long time ago.

    However there are too many snouts in the trough. They should not allow the failed TDs to stand for the Senate in the next election following their failure to make the Dail. Likewise Senators should not be allowed to stand for the Dail. This practice has turned the Senate into a retirement home for failed TDs and wannabe TDs.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,585 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Australia manages with only 151 MPs.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,505 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Federation. Not at all comparable to here - 7 states with two house of their own, two territories with unicameral.

    Also a larger and more effective Senate.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,585 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    We could have seven devolved regional authorities replacing the 30 or so LAs, and our Senate could be made more effective.

    I think that would lead to better representation than we currently have.



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,545 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Are you having some sort of a laugh? Dublin voters have always been under-represented in the Dail. FF even tried to codify rural over-representation in law in the 1959 Electoral Act, but it was found unconstitutional.

    Post edited by Hotblack Desiato on

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    We've been down this road before with the County councillors having more power. There's a reason it was taken away from them, there was so much corruption going on it was farcical.

    In addition councillors are populist policy chasing lemmings.

    One prime example is in Galway city, the removal of a RAB went back and forth between the executive and the Councillors for years. Was a 5 arm RAB becoming a 4 arm light controlled junction.

    The Councillors both accepted and rejected all versions put to them until they were finally told make a choice or lose the funding. Essentially they had to be treated like children to get them to do their job.

    Honestly, the sooner zoning powers are removed from them, the better



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,505 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    They already are matched, indeed there has historically been a bias against Dublin - there has never been one towards Dublin

    Dublin Central would have a large amount of people not entitled to vote in general elections, and also generally low turnout. These impact the quota but that does not suggest that they have more TDs per population.

    Additionally, Dublin Central is a 4 seat (~120k population) and Tipperary is a 5 seat (~150k population) so quota wouldn't even be comparable. And it was five candidates in Tipp that got it, not that the figure means anything.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,384 ✭✭✭nigeldaniel


    Well, as I said a few years ago during a meeting of like minds [labour and FF] 4 TDs per county was enough. They did not exactly endorse it but did not dismiss it either. Vast numbers of TDs here do nothing of note at all. A small government and small opposition would work much better in all. Alas, too many TDs like their paychecks and all the extras that come with it. It's a career of one's self and not much in the way of serving the state. Hench the rise of the filibusters and grandstanders rhetoric specialists and so on. It's a game of the XXX factor and not much else. politics it certainly is not.

    Dan.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,585 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    When the number of TDs is reduced, then the choice of elected candidates for high office is reduced, and given the current workload for Ministers because of our increased involvement with EU, UN, and NI/UK, there needs to be talent in those Ministerial positions. Look at the current UK Cabinet, where only the most loyal (to the PM) need apply - all that get the gig are talentless numpties who are little more than nodding dogs because there are few otherwise that could be loyal to such an individual.

    We have a ministerial system where 15 ministers form the cabinet as allowed in the constitution, and we have now allowed (who did?) another 15 or so Junior Ministers to take up executive positions. So we have 30 or so ministers and these come from the Gov party/parties leaving the balance of Gov TDs as backbenchers. If one assumes that at least 50% of Gov TDs are backbenchers (required to fill committee positions), then that would imply a minimum of 60 Gov TDs, or a Dail of 120 or more. So 160 would look like an adequate number to cover all requirements in our system.

    The constitution uses a linear relationship between population and representation which is based on faulty logic because the larger the population, the less per capita representation is required, as any examination of democratic countries parliament worldwide would expose.

    What we need, more than extra TDs, is a more representative local government with effective powers, such as would result from a regional local Gov structure of say 5 or 6 regions - all with devolved responsibilities. Our system of government is far too centralised, with TDs becoming, in some circumstances, just messengers interfacing with Gov departments. [This is happening currently with respect to passports and the huge delays happening with first-time applications].



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    What we need, more than extra TDs, is a more representative local government with effective powers, such as would result from a regional local Gov structure of say 5 or 6 regions - all with devolved responsibilities.

    We had this, it was riddled with corruption and the only way to fix it was to neuter the powers councillors had.

    About the only thing they still have power over is zoning and its evident by some of the farcical situations around the country, that there is still a lot of corruption prevalent.




  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,585 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Well, there is that - corruption would be an issue.

    Of course such a change would require strong anti-corruption measures, but the regional local government would be such that the likes of Kerry CC would be counterbalanced by Cork or Limerick who would be unlikely to back such matters. Zoning is matter that lends itself to corruption, and that is best managed by a betterment tax that makes the rezoning of no value to the land owner.

    Crooks can become politicians and politicians can become crooks.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,961 ✭✭✭✭titan18


    Considering our whip system and the strength of the whip, we pretty much don't need anymore than 7/8 TDs. They've feck all of an individual voice and they'll just vote based on what the leader of the party wants them to vote.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,505 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    171 TDs now required with the census results. More than can actually fit on the existing seats!

    With a census again in four years it may sense to go beyond the minimum



  • Registered Users Posts: 78,356 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    There is plenty of space in the room to move things around.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 78,356 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    4 TDs per county? County population varies from 35,087 (Leitrim) to 1,450,701 (Dublin).



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