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Buffalo mass shooting - Great Replacement Theory & the long trail of blood

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,167 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    If people move to Dublin they're Dubs

    No they most certainly are not - thats worthy of a thread of its own though I reckon

    People are "removed" when they die, naturally or otherwise. If group A are not having enough children to maintain population level, then the population of A is declining over time. If group B immigrate and are having more children, over time group B will replace group A at the total population level of that particular place.

    If group B did not arrive then of course group A would still be in decline, but not replaced. That's irrelevant though. The semantic point you are trying to argue is whether it constitutes replacement, as I've just shown, it does.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,803 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Your first post on this thread was a meme.

    You saw black people get murdered and that was your first reaction. You then went on to promote and defend a Neo-Nazi conspiracy theory intended to radicalising people into committing acts of racially-motivated murder.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,167 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    He reportedly boasted online about the illegal modifications he was making to the weapon - some controversy as to whether the FBI should have gone after him on it



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,619 ✭✭✭✭Overheal




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,619 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Once again you decline to argue in good faith: if you think I have the wrong end of the stick, get the other for us.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,845 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    No one is being replaced (take the place of).

    Can you give me an example of a single Irish person who has been replaced?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,619 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    I'm certainly a South Carolinian even though I am not a native South Carolinian. Added to the voter roll and everything. Oxford definition of Floridian for example (which I also previously fell into) included "a native or inhabitant of the US state of Florida." I am a natural Washingtonian (WA). It seems logical to me a Dubliner would be a native or inhabitant of Dublin. A 1st generation American, a naturalized American, is an American, and they have the same rights as every other American, native or otherwise.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    A meme that was heaped with praise for its pithiness and contained zero Nazis. Take notes. 🙂

    And now throwing Nazis around like snuff at a wake, Hail mary stuff.

    What conspiracy theory? That Europeans are being replaced by non Europeans in some European countries? Given that your argument to the counter is that you cant replace people unless you first remove them I'd feel confident in saying that you're relying entirely on semantics now. Hence the slabbering about Nazis.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,803 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Nope. It's literally the basic definition of the word. When challenged you mount this pitiful defence because the point of this toxic drivel is to push impressionable young men into committing atrocities.

    Feel free to provide evidence but I think at this point it's obvious you have nothing.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,085 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Given the facts I don't see how GRT is an exclusively American problem. GRT has been referenced in mass shooting manifestos from the US, to New Zealand, to Norway, etc. it is a topic of global concern.


    So 3 nutjobs in the span of 8 years, out of a population of about 7 billion.

    Perhaps you are over-egging the pudding here?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    I seem to remember if was ok for the white supremacists to replace the original population of America



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,619 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Did you read the OP?

    Between the inaccurate, if pithy meme, and your seeming unawareness about a neonazi angle in this thread suggests you didn't read the OP or understand what you were jumping in to deflect from or defend, which was the killing of 10 people and wounding of 3 others in a mass shooting by a killer with neonazi messaging all over his XM-15 rifle.

    It's my hope you'll take a break from the thread until you've taken the chance to, you know, actually read it, and come back when you know you're ready to discuss in good faith.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,167 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    European birthrates are sub-replacement level, so populations will decline unless immigrants are brought in. How is that not "replacing"?

    Not even a conspiracy, its just the definition of the word. Those who die are replaced by immigrants instead of through native births at the macro level. Arguing "there is no replacement unless people are killed" is semantics in the extreme, but also incorrect.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,803 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    It isn't.

    This is why precision with words is so important. Presenting it this way suggests that white people are being killed or removed. Semantics are then employed when the conspiracy theory is challenged.

    If you're concerned about birth rates, you'd be directing your outrage at the conservatives and neoliberals who enabled the 1% to hoard vast amounts of wealth.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    If you want revisit the link I provided feel free:

    So far, what you have is that an increase in non Europeans and the corresponding decrease in Europeans as percentage of population does not constitute a replacement so long as the Europeans are not being shipped off somewhere else. A novel attempt at making an argument around semantics but not particularly convincing. I'd suggest you move past the current "facts are racist" "you're a naziiii" phase and straight onto the "why does it matter anyway" position. We might yet establish what is factual before we move onto the moralizing about them. :)



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,803 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Precision with words is important. Yet again, you have no evidence. Just wailing about a demographic shift and pretending it's some sort of conspiracy does not make it so.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,619 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Because it's not replacing. If you want higher European birth rates go have more of your own babies. That's a decision between you and the wife.

    REPLACEMENT is another matter.

    (Brasstown Bald, summit, GA, 4/22)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,167 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Theres no outrage here - I'm just pointing out that you trying to semantically state there is no replacement is wrong. In order to buoy European populations we are importing people essentially from outside Europe. this is fine. However these people who come are replacing the population lost through death in the EU.

    Again, there are more than 1 form of replacement. You can physically replace individual people, or at the macro level you can replace declining birthrates with immigrants to keep population up.

    The main reason we do it is because no country wants a situation where the old outnumber the young, that kind of demographic invert will cause pensions to go unfunded and all hell to break loose. However it is by definition a replacement.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,803 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Nope. Not remotely the same thing. I could go over it again but there wouldn't be a point.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,619 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Theres no outrage here - I'm just pointing out that you trying to semantically state there is no replacement is wrong.

    Did you mean assimilation?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    So you're saying that there is actually a demographic shift away from Europeans towards non Europeans in some European countries?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,803 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Nope. I'm saying that there are more non-white Europeans than before. Europeans are not being replaced.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,167 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Back to basics then - I have 5 granny smith apples, I eat 2, then I buy another 2 pink ladies.

    The pink ladys have replaced the granny smiths I ate. The same principle applies at the macro-population level, with natural births/deaths and immigration.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,803 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Only if someone is eating the white Europeans.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Also Timmy is conveniently ignoring that the theory explicitly relates to non white Europeans. Just trying to downplay how horribly racist the theory and no study backs it up....



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,712 ✭✭✭Nermal


    Why are you repeatedly asking for evidence of something (replacement per your definition) that no one in the thread has stated is happening?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,167 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Olympic level mental gymnastics going on from you. So people only get replaced if they are killed, but not if they die naturally?

    A man in my office died of a heart attack, and a woman was hired to replace him. That woman replaced that man.

    It is literally the same principle at the population level, yet you seem unable to comprehend it. People naturally die, not enough people are born to replace them, so immigration fills the gap - i.e. immigrants replace the % of population that declined. Its not a conspiracy, its not a bad thing, but it is by definition, A replacing B.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Because you'd be engaging in equivocation.... again 😂

    It's not "replacement" unless people are being physically removed, that is your position I believe?

    So if a European country's European population dwindles to zero while it's non European population increases to 100 per cent, no replacement has occurred provided that nobody was shipped off somewhere else, according to you?

    Sooner or later you'll have to commit to your position and look silly or just start wailing "Naziiiiiii" again.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,803 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Use a silly analogy, get a silly response.

    Who is orchestrating this "replacement" of Europeans? Answer with evidence please.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,845 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    No you ate two granny smiths and you acquired two pink ladies they were not replaced.

    If you have 5 apples and eat two you have three apples.

    If you acquire two more apples you have five but the first two have not been replaced they have been eaten.

    However if you had a bowl of apples and I took two Granny smiths and I replaced them with two pink lady apples. Then you could say Robbie replaced my granny smiths with 2 pink ladies, that would be a replacement.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,803 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Believe in whatever silly guff you think. No amount of daft what if's are going to prove this racist conspiracy theory.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,308 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    If the European population reduces and the non European population increases, nobody is being replaced, the non EU population is just increasing and the EU population is reducing.

    The EU population can still increase again. The two populations are not intrinsically connected. You don't lose 1 if you gain 1.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,619 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Back to basics then - I have 5 granny smith apples, I eat 2, then I buy another 2 pink ladies.

    The pink ladys have replaced the granny smiths I ate. The same principle applies at the macro-population level, with natural births/deaths and immigration.


    Only if someone is eating the white Europeans.


    Olympic level mental gymnastics going on from you. So people only get replaced if they are killed, but not if they die naturally?

    Oh FFS, no mental gymnastics, you literally said the same principle applies, that europeans are being eaten, then replaced with other apples that someone bought no less.


    You didn't replace the pink ladies after the 2 granny smiths went to rot, you said they were ate.

    The pink ladies haven't replaced any granny smiths. If granny smiths want to breed in this warped analogy where apples are persons, they can. If the pink ladies ate the 2 granny smiths maybe you're on to something.

    GRT says that the person buying and eating all these apples is a Liberal NWO Jew and he has it out for the granny smiths, and if the granny smiths don't start wiping out the pink ladies (and the Jew(s)) there will be no granny smiths left. The reality is some granny smiths and pink ladies will pair off and make pinksmith etc. baby apples (ie. miscegenation), and some granny smiths will pair with other granny smiths to make new baby granny smiths, etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,167 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    MEPs within the European Union for starters.

    re·​place | \ ri-ˈplās  \

    replacedreplacingreplaces

    Definition of replace

    transitive verb

    1

    to restore to a former place or position

    replace cards in a file

    2

    to take the place of especially as a substitute or successor

    3

    : to put something new in the place of

    replace a worn carpet


    So we are putting new people in the place of the old people (who died, and were not already replaced by new births)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,619 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    How do the radicals get from here though, to the violent extermination of other people based on race?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,803 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    You didn't read that, did you? Nobody is being replaced. Are we back to the old tactic of changing the meaning of words to suit your argument?

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,828 ✭✭✭ArthurDayne


    I think you are over-simplifying the phenomenon of demographic change to make it fit neatly into a definition of replacement. These “groups” you refer to could be broken down in so many different ways but what you seem to be doing is inferring that there are two groups — A and B — which presumably refers to immigrants and ‘natives’. You claim that a birth rate imbalance would mean that immigrants ‘replace’ natives, right? That seems pretty simplistic to me — not least because none of these groups never stay static, they change and intertwine.

    Like, if I marry a black woman who came here from West Africa and my children are non-white, and let’s say my children marry other black people who immigrate to Ireland and then have black children themselves .... have I been replaced? What “group” are my grandchildren in now? I dare say the Venn Diagram would soon become unwieldy. My friend’s wife is Polish and they have one son, what ‘group’ is he in and how does his group differ from my hypothetical children?

    Just because demographic change has accelerated, this is not due to design or replacement. The world has simply become smaller, travel is easier, and the West is an attractive place for people to gravitate to — the same way people have always gravitated towards centres of commerce or freedom / safety. Saying that people are being “replaced” is a simplistic interpretation, and it can lead to some very dangerous conclusions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,167 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Dictionary definition was posted above

    : to put something new in the place of

    In order to stop EU countries populations from falling and having a demographic(pension) crisis, immigrants must take the place of the natural drop in population - i.e. immigrants need to replace the EU population that declined.

    I dont know and I dont agree with the conspiracy, as I've said umpteen times. My point is that the replacement is real (for economic reasons), but certain people cant seem to agree on the definition of the word "replace".



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,803 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Assuming that we're not human beings but merely cogs in a machine. Others have explained this to you in better terms. Repeating this nonsense does not make it true.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,845 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    Last week I cooked a lasagne for my family and we ate every bit of it.

    If I cook a lasagne tonight is that replacing the lasagne I ate last week?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    I haven't used a single what if, I'm asserting what you believe based on your own statements and you obviously can't stand over it as it's reliant on blatant equivocation. Hence resorting to insults.

    So, now that we have established to the satisfaction of any reasonable person, that Europeans are being replaced by non Europeans in some European countries, I suppose the next question is to what extent is it occurring and is it a good thing, bad thing or non event?

    Or perhaps we should discuss why having that discussion is racist.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,803 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Where was this established? All I saw was you and timmy spouting the same daft trope over and over again.

    Feel free to provide proof that we're being replaced bit since you ignored my previous four requests, I expect nothing.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,619 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Dictionary definition 

    Should be interested in the Manifesto definitions. You aren't replacing a lugnut with another lugnut, you're talking about the population of human persons becoming more multicultural. As though you are trying to box the topic into the corner by not acknowledging this.

     My point is that the replacement is real (for economic reasons), but certain people cant seem to agree on the definition of the word "replace"

    My point is that the worst kind of people don't see the distinction and they think replace means they are being wiped out. That's what they call it after all, the Great Replacement Theory.

    “An unrelenting stream of immigration. But why? Well, Joe Biden just said it, to change the racial mix of the country. That’s the reason, to reduce the political power of people whose ancestors lived here, and dramatically increase the proportion of Americans newly arrived from the Third World. … This is the language of eugenics, it’s horrifying.”


    — Fox News host Tucker Carlson, remarks during his evening news show, Sept. 22

    To hear them tell it, letting in the Irish during the famine was to be heralded as the end of the white race.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,308 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    They're not 'replacing' anyone - their existence does not inhibit the existence of Europeans.

    You have a job. Your boss decides to replace you with someone else. You now no longer have a job. Can you go back to that job? No, you have been replaced. Someone else has taken your role.

    That is not the same situation as this population demographic. Nobody is 'taking' your European role.

    We might be 'adding' immigrants to fill roles that are empty because of the European demographic decreasing, but that does not inhibit Europeans from increasing their number.

    You might find that pedantic semantically, however it completely changes the nature of this conspiracy theory as it removes the feelings that Europeans are losing their position in their society and being 'replaced' by a non EU person. Which is factually incorrect. Nobody is losing anything.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,167 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    "Cogs in the machine" is exactly how populations are modelled at the macro level. To say that wide population groups cannot be replaced like that because "we're all human beings" is the biggest cop out among cop outs.

    I agree its not as black and white as group A and group B, that analogy was only used because certain people cant grasp the concept of a population being replaced without something akin to the Armenian genocide. Its not a nefarious conspiracy, its something we do for economic reasons as Ive explained already, however demographic change through immigration is by definition replacement.

    Put it this way - seeing as there are not enough births to keep EU population up, it would have to decline if something were not to replace the population lost through natural decline.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,167 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Replacement does not by definition mean someone "loses" out - it means you fill the place of something with something else.

    For every EU person that dies, some are replaced by new births. Of those that are not replaced by new births, we try to replace them through immigration into the union. Its by definition replacing something.

    There is a reason we talk about "replacement birthrates" - the idea being that each new baby born replaces a person who dies. The same principle applies to immigration.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,803 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Look, there's only so many times I can say why this is nonsense. If you're going to keep at it, all it does is beg the question why. O1s1n has perfectly debunked your drivel much more effectively than I have.

    If you have proof that we're being replaced, provide it. You don't, of course but I'll give you the opportunity nonetheless.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,167 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    From the UN:

    Replacement Migration: Is it A Solution to Declining and Ageing Populations?

    ...

    Replacement migration refers to the international migration that would be needed to offset declines in the size of population, the declines in the population of working age, as well as to offset the overall ageing of a population.

    Even the UN use the term "replacement" to describe immigrants replacing the natural population decline. How is it that you cannot accept it as a valid use of the term "replace" when even the UN can?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Provided each time, would you like to repeat that loop in again, perhaps in a manner that doesnt end with running off under the cover of insults?


    If not, we can move on.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,803 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Migration does not equate to replacement. Presumably, the UN are looking at it from an economic standpoint. You're shilling the debunked Kalergi plan. There's a difference.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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