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F1 2022 thread - see post 1 for rules

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,153 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    It's ridiculous alright.whats the significance of the nosering? Is it one tou can't just put back in again after the race?

    Pretty shocking display of ego. But that's one of the qualities that makes them top drivers. And like him or not, he is (maybe was) one of the very best.

    Silly protest. He'll play the victim, but he'll play ball in the end.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,118 ✭✭✭muckwarrior


    "he is (maybe was) one of the very best"

    I was wondering when this might start. As soon as someone in the same car starts beating Hamilton a lot of people will argue it's because he's past his best or whatever. It couldn't possibly be that maybe some other drivers actually would have been capable of beating him if they were also in the Mercedes the past number of years.

    (By the way, I'm not necessarily accusing you of this, I just thought it was an interesting quote as it was something I was expecting to start seeing).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,153 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Ah, maybe. Maybe he was only average in a brilliant car (which would make Rosberg, Button, Alonso only average drivers too since he bested them over their times together)

    I think he has been an exceptional driver. I don't get into nonsense like The GOAT or any of that. The chances that Russell has jumped in the car an is matching/marginally beating an exception driver, are remote. I think it's likely he has lost pace. He's an old driver now. Surprised he has kept it so consistent for this long.

    He has always managed to pull something special out of the bag. But this year it's not happening. I think he's different this year nsd I think it's probably him losing pace.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,453 ✭✭✭sam t smith


    Button finished ahead of Hamilton on points over their 3 seasons as teammates?

    Hamilton and Alonso finished level on points in their single season as teammates?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,153 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Sure that's the alternative way to view it when the normal way to view it doesn’t suit your argument. Hamilton scored 15 points less than Button over thier 3 years together. And Hamilton beat Button in 2 of those 3 years, which his his normal way to measure it.

    So it was very close over 3 seasons together. Does that make Hamilton and Button, average drivers both?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,453 ✭✭✭sam t smith


    You claimed he bested Button. He didn’t.

    The WDC is based on points so points is the logical way to compare teammates, especially since they have the same equipment.

    Similarly it makes sense to use the same comparison across multiple seasons when they were teammates.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,153 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Sure. And by that logic, Kubica infinity outscored Russell so was Kubica better than Russel? Anyone who watched them as teammates knows that's not the defining metric.

    What's your point in relation to my original post about his relative performance with teammates and his overall standing as a driver? He bested those teammates (or was about even with Button if you use the total points instead of season positions). So what's your point?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,453 ✭✭✭sam t smith


    Hamilton didn’t ‘best’ Button. He matched Alonso, he didn’t ‘best’ him. He lost a world title to Rosberg.

    None of that makes Hamilton ‘great’.

    Button and Hamilton were teammates over the course of 3 full seasons where each had a car to score points at a minimum every race.

    The same doesn’t apply to Kubica vs Russell. So using them as a comparison is ridiculous.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,153 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Funny, I thought you'd have been the first to point out that Hamilton outscored Rosberg over their time together by the bare 140 points. That metric only counts sometimes. You must teach me the rules.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,022 ✭✭✭Captain_Crash


    I’ve said this for a while myself and am on record in this forum saying it, put Vettel, Alonso, Verstappen to name but a few into the rocket Hamilton has been in for the past 8 years and they would also have a bucket of world champs! Infact I don’t think peak Hamilton would ever have beaten peak Vettel or peak Alonso in that Merc! If it’s not going his way his head goes, it’s more apparent this year but in the past we’ve seen spats he has when there is any minor inconvenience! Schuey would have eaten him alive had he been 10 years younger!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭quokula


    Yep and one of those years, 2011, they had arguably the best car in the grid, with Button finishing second in the WDC behind only Vettel who's driving was untouchable, well ahead of the other Red Bull and of Hamilton. Vettel or Alonso in that McLaren would have been champion easily. People thought Button was going to be destroyed coming into McLaren as an outsider but in the end he outscored Lewis over three years and Lewis ended up leaving the team with his tail between his legs. He then went on to partner up with Rosberg who was never anything more than an average midfield driver and everyone again expected him to be destroyed by Hamilton, yet in the end there was nothing between those two either and Nico beat Lewis to the championship before retiring.

    The mental gymnastics some people will do to justify their deifying of Hamilton just because since then he won a lot in the most dominant car in F1 history and with a subservient teammate in what has otherwise been a not particularly remarkable career is astonishing at times. Now he isn't in a dominant car and he doesn't have a third rate teammate, once again he's coming off second best and people are finding new excuses to justify it. The inconvenient truth is that in his entire F1 career Bottas and Kovalainen are the only drivers Hamilton has ever actually consistently beaten without a massive car advantage, so it's no surprise to see a half decent driver like Russell outperforming him.

    And it's utterly laughable to claim he "bested" Alonso without mentioning the internal politics of McLaren at the time, Ron Dennis literally saying it was his goal for Lewis to beat Alonso, Alonso getting on the wrong side of the team because he cooperated with the FIA's investigation into the cheating, stealing and corruption that was going on at McLaren while Lewis showed he was a good little soldier by keeping quiet, a trait that he continued to show later in his McLaren career when he was caught intentionally lying to stewards to get other drivers penalised, for which a member of middle management fell on his sword to cover for Ron's golden boy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,382 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    I wonder how far Lewis will push this jewellery stunt. He seems more focused on it than his driving.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,453 ✭✭✭sam t smith




  • Posts: 25,909 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I said last year or the year before I thought Hamilton had lost his edge. Easy to happen after years driving with 0 challenge. I'm not arsed caveating this with the usual ones but having lost to Rosberg and then Rosberg retiring I think that somewhat stole Hamilton's rebound. He came back and easily won 4 titles. Even when Ferrari looked decent the Merc was still the car. Last season he came back strongly but it was kinda late in the season when he did. In previous seasons that would have been fine but when faced with a proper challenge he (and the team) were caught out. Having that pressure for the first time in 5 years (maybe 8 since it was always in-house) is different than being able to try things and it not really mattering if they work. It's a big organisation to turn around. Once they did we saw their might in Brazil and the like but they left themselves too much to do. That, plus Hamilton is getting older. What he may have been able to do over a season before now maybe takes a few races to get geed up then can sustain it for a number of races.

    Only a clown would say he's not one of the best of all time. His rookie season is evidence enough of that, even if the stars did align. However he did eventually manage to suit the stupid tyres and has had huge success on them. He's still capable of driving a race and dominating if he gets the chance. But when you have hundreds of millions in the bank and not really competing that'll affect different people at different scales. Some have a ceiling they're always close to, some have a super-high floor. With Hamilton, even in the McLaren days the commentators noted that more and more often he'd show up for a weekend and if he had no pace on Friday the weekend was basically a write-off. Leaving aside the childishness of him, even if he was keeping shtum I'd expect his performances to be suffering.



  • Posts: 25,909 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I haven't been on Formula Dank so maybe I missed it but Bottas got off fairly handy for his software glitch. 🤣



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,153 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Sure. If you ever figure out when we use total points scored and when we use single season performance to compare teammates, be sure to let me know.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,453 ✭✭✭sam t smith


    More tripe posting. Don’t bother responding to my posts if you don’t have anything new to say.

    Of the current grid, Verstappen, Alonso, Russell, Vettel, LeClerc, Sainz, Norris, Perez and Ricciardo (in no particular order) would have gotten 5 or more championships had they driven the 8 years of dominant Mercedes car, particularly with a hand picked teammate for the last 5 seasons and the ‘Valtteri, it’s James…’.

    Hamilton is (or certainly was) a decent driver.

    One of many.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,453 ✭✭✭sam t smith


    The longer he drags it on the more it seems like he is trying to engineer a way out of F1 that saves face.

    ‘Oh look, I was forced out of F1 for taking a stand.’ looks far better than being well beaten by his new teammate.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,709 ✭✭✭✭flazio


    Nobody will or should care. Michael Schumacher's 7 titles weren't tarnished by Rosberg beating him in his final season.

    This too shall pass.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,118 ✭✭✭muckwarrior


    Oh no, what have I started 😂

    For the record, I do think Hamilton is an exceptional driver. However, I don't think he's automatically the GOAT just because of the records he's accumulated. Of the 6 championships he won with Mercedes he only had to realistically beat 2 drivers, so they don't count for an awful lot in my mind. The fact that he matched Alonso is actually the main reason I rate him so highly. Many will say that Alonso was hampered by all the shenanigans that year, but nevertheless, to be so close in your rookie season to a guy who obliterated most of his team mates is impressive!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭dmakc


    Was Hamilton's "greatest drive" not only 6 months ago at Brazil? And now he's conveniently past it? The issue isn't Hamilton turning 37, it's Bottas moving on.

    This season is a legitimate comparison between the two. One is keeping morale up for the team, the other is busy being a celebrity.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,382 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,185 ✭✭✭Hijpo




  • Posts: 25,909 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I loved the delay with Riccardo, for a second it's like "AHA! NOT EVEN THE MIGHTY SNAPCHAT WILL STOP ME SMILING" oh...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,439 ✭✭✭Killinator


    Leclerc has finished 4th, 8th and 7th so far Iin his F1 career with Ferrari. Now he has the chance to drive the best car on the grid and surprise surprise he's a hot favourite.

    It's not a coincidence that the lads driving the very best equipment win most of the time, it's worked out well for Schumacher, Senna, Prost, Mansell, Vettel, Hamilton, Clark, Lauda, Mansell, etc, etc....

    You can be the 'best' all you like but if you don't have the car underneath you to match the talent then you ain't going nowhere.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,153 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Sure thing. Get back to me if you ever figure when to compare drivers using seasons won or total points. Can I assume it's whichever method leads to the conclusion you're hoping to reach rather than any kind of consistent standard?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,453 ✭✭✭sam t smith




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,153 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Now that they're not driving the same car and we can't accurately judge the relative pace of their cars, is the time to compare them as drivers? What conclusions have you drawn?

    Nottas was always a decebt driver. I said it last year when this thread thought he was bottom tier and I think he's a decent driver job. Not elite, but among the top of the middle tier drivers. Must be enjoying having a pay driver teammate rather than a top tier driver for a change. Looks like he's enjoying himself this year.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,158 ✭✭✭This is it


    Don't call me pal, mate!



This discussion has been closed.
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