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What will happen in the North

  • 06-05-2022 9:29am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,806 ✭✭✭


    if SF get most seats but unionists block Michelle O'Neill from becoming First Minister?

    It's very hard to see any hope for partition ever being a success if unionism won't accept voters putting in a republican. It'd definitely be a long term own goal, but they might still block it.



«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,337 ✭✭✭keeponhurling


    I wonder what the "Democratic" Unionist Party will do here....



  • Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Same thing as happened with paisley,

    unionists will have the proverbial gun at their head and be let choose between sharing power or joint dublin/london rule.....easy enough to soften them clowns


    https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30305225.html



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,973 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    It's a very different time now. There is no way the current British Nationalist UK govt. would allow Ireland next nor near having any say in the running of NI.

    So it would be a period of direct rule. The UK govt. certainly doesn't care what voters in NI think or who they vote for anyway. They have their "team" up there (DUP/loyalists) that will support their fights with the EU (the most important thing), and that's about as far as their reflection on NI goes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭Quitelife


    Fairly Simple- Sinn Fein will get the most seats and the DUP will refuse to go back to executive to prevent Sinn Fein becoming First Minister.

    The DUP want a apartheid system that no fenian will ever be top dog regardless of Elections or Demographics, an Old South Africa type set up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,561 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    direct rule/hard border/ back to '69/ Russian support for IRA

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,806 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    If they won't accept a result a First Minister from the party the majority of Catholics are going to vote for, it seems to me that Catholics can't be expected to accept that NI can be made to work. I would think it'd make the case for having a border poll sooner rather than later.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Maybe, but it's also very hard to see any hope for a 'border poll' and a UI ever being a success too................



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 83,416 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    M


    I'd like it to be set up as a 100% independent EU state, who would pay for it is an entirely different story 😁



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭Quitelife


    Sinn Fein get 64% of the vote in West Belfast , 4 out of the 5 seats, serious percentage vote

    All constituency have 5 seats this is The only constituency to see one party get 4 of the 5 seats.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭Quitelife


    A partioned Ireland hasnt been a success either!!

    We always seem to worry about how the Unionists could survive in a United Ireland, we never seem to discuss how 750,000 Nationalists have put up with so much crap over the last hundred years since we hung them out to dry in 1922!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Yep.. so back to direct rule for NI. We/ they are clearly not politically mature enough yet to discuss and agree how to share the island and it's institutions.

    The corrosive nationalist view is as bad as the daft unionist position.

    Maybe in another generation or two.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭Quitelife


    If i was a young nationalist up there i wouldnt be willing to wait for another generation or two!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,429 ✭✭✭nigeldaniel


    What will happen up North, plenty of photos ops and plenty more grand statements, after all that, not much will happen. The problem with politics up north is the place was set up to appraise two fundamentalist opposing sides. They never got anything done in the past and will not any day soon.

    Dan.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,602 ✭✭✭Funkfield


    (double post)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,602 ✭✭✭Funkfield




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,717 ✭✭✭firemansam4


    If anything I think this election shows that a UI is still very far away.

    If we look at the polling percentages, it seems that there is a fairly even split amongs unionist and nationalist parties, unionist maybe a slightly higher share of the vote. Then the rest independents and Alliance.

    I would imagine in a border poll that most of the Alliance voters would also vote to remain in the union. So going by that I can only see a border poll going one way.

    I actually dont understand why Sinn fein are pushing so hard for a border poll now when everything suggests that it will return a vote to stay in the Union, IMO then such a result would embolden the more hardline unionists. And would probably set any chance of a UI in the future further back.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    Its great that more moderate voices are being heard. The border poll thing is a myth perpetrated by critics of SF. I highly doubt a border poll is the main reason any meaningful number of people voted in the election.

    They will likely push for it but I don't think its suddenly the most important thing for the electorate and all those who voted SF.

    Economics will pass or deny a UI.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,956 ✭✭✭skimpydoo


    If the SDLP and the Alliance party supported Michelle O'Neil she would be First Minister and you could see a government with no Unionists involved. That's if the Good Friday Agreement allows for this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,810 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    I actually dont understand why Sinn fein are pushing so hard for a border poll now when everything suggests that it will return a vote to stay in the Union, IMO then such a result would embolden the more hardline unionists. And would probably set any chance of a UI in the future further back.

    Depends on how close the result is. The defeat of the 2014 Scottish Independence referendum didn't kill that cause because it was only 55% no; SNP apparently planning to hold another one next year. Anything north of 45% yes in the north for a UI referendum would keep the issue alive and I think would justify the exercise from SF's POV.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,806 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    For the South, where I live, the big message is that a border poll is coming. Not immediately, but it will have happened, and quite possibly passed, within ten years.

    Not preparing for it is an act of moral cowardice. It’s going to happen before full reconciliation does. That’s unfortunate, but it’s reality.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,219 ✭✭✭✭briany


    A Border Poll doesn't happen until such time as the NI Secretary decides it will likely pass. How the NI Sec decides this, exactly, isn't well defined in the GFA, but that's the rule.

    Therefore Sinn Fein need not say a word about a UI, but rather to work to make it desirable for a majority of voters in NI.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,599 ✭✭✭newmember2


    "...How the NI Sec decides this, exactly, isn't well defined in the GFA..."



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,471 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    https://education.niassembly.gov.uk/post_16/the_assembly_and_executive Following an election, the largest party nominates the First Minister and the largest party in the second largest community nominates the deputy First Minister. AFAIK labour made that rule change.

    The DUP have 25 seats and are the largest party in the second largest community.On the first day the Assembly meets after an election, MLAs sign the Register and designate themselves as ‘nationalist’ or ‘unionist’.

    If the UUP or SDLP decide to redesignate as 'others' like Alliance that could be interesting, a third community if allowed would outflank the DUP.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    A functioning NI Assembly one would hope is what happens and that they don't just fire themselves again. As for the border poll, well how often have SF not stoked the idea of one? Their timing is off. We might see one in 10 years or it could be 20, but not 5. It may be defeated at that time too. It will come down to showing an ability to work together as adults first.



  • Registered Users Posts: 894 ✭✭✭Bayonet


    The funny thing is that while the terrorist war was happening, the British were resolute about holding onto NI. Every Brit was quite passionate about it.

    These days? apart from some pockets in Scotland, I've not met anyone who has strong views on it. If NI went to Ireland there would be a mass shrug of the shoulders by the British public.

    Obviously the allies in NI wouldn't be happy, but the simple fact is that it doesn't seem to stir the passions any longer. I'd say the Brits are more interested in keeping the Falklands and Gibraltar.

    I've got no evidence, just my feel talking to people.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,796 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    DUP might want to be careful.. if they abstain from carrying out their democratic mandate that egg that they sit on might crack…it already is I feel.

    if and when a border poll happens with the outcome in favour of a United Ireland ….I’d image months of carnage….



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Such a poll presupposes a functioning NI. We are nowhere near that yet at all. It also presupposes a SF government who can bring it to the people. We on this part of the island tend to be quite cautious about saying Yes to things in referenda, so just announcing one doesn't mean it will pass.



  • Registered Users Posts: 223 ✭✭Sadler Peak


    It will remain part of the United Kingdom. Thank goodness.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,219 ✭✭✭✭briany


    Sinn Fein won't be wanting a border poll any time soon. It's not up to them whether one happens anyway, and the NI Sec can easily judge from looking at the vote shares that a border poll would be quite unlikely to return a vote for a United Ireland any time soon.

    But the DUP, those ever-reliable masters of political strategy, are doing their level best to fall for every trap laid to hasten their most feared eventuality, and Sinn Fein are laughing their heads off. Sinn Fein know that all they have to do is sit back, fold their arms, watch the DUP throw tantrum after tantrum, watch Unionism fight with itself and bleed voters to the AP. Sure, Sinn Fein would like those voters for their own, but they know it won't happen. Simply having hard Unionism shrivel up as a political force in NI will be a worthy second prize for SF, though.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,076 ✭✭✭trashcan


    The SDLP you could conceivably imagine doing this (though I wouldn’t say it’s likely.) No UUP leader would risk it however. Just look at the flak Beattie got for declining to attend any further protocol protests.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,956 ✭✭✭skimpydoo




  • Registered Users Posts: 316 ✭✭O'Neill


    I don't understand personally how people are suggesting that if Stormont breaks down again works on SF's favour. Personally, the SF voters I know want the assembly to get back up and running.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,308 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    A second election could work against Sinn Fein. They spent the whole election campaign saying it was nothing to do with a border poll and everything to do with the cost of living. They have spent every minute since the election result talking only about a border poll, and doing nothing about the cost of living.

    People shouldn't fall for that twice.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,615 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    What is interesting to me is the almost after though comments from the media about the Alliance, the rise of the Alliance party is a massive story yet conventional media are almost falling over themself to get their story out of the way so they can keep talking about SF and the DUP.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,806 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    Tbf a Catholic taking the top office is a very significant moment. Okay, there’s no more power, but it does show that nationalists aren’t permanent laggards now.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,219 ✭✭✭✭briany


    Centrism doesn't sell papers or generate clicks, firstly.

    Secondly, that the Alliance party has been growing isn't really a new story, but Sinn Fein being the largest party in the NI Assembly is totally novel. A watershed moment in NI politics.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,946 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    They’ve done nothing about the cost of living since the election? How many hours/days ago was that Leo/Micheál?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,934 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    You've invented this because in your cups you can't think of another criticism.

    MLMD gave her view in an interview in which she also covered other issues. They are not spending every minute or anything like it talking about a BP. They turned up for work today while the belligerents stayed away, sulking like yourself about a border poll.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,308 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Only thing we have heard from them is tired old stuff about a border poll. Nobody listening.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,806 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    Come on, SF got the most seats in the Assembly, some people are listening to them. A lot of people both north and south don't want to hear about a border poll, but it is a significant political issue. With so many people voting in favour of parties who favour ending partition a border poll is going to have to be held at some point, unless there is a collapse in those parties support.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,934 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    You are either unresearched or willfully misleading.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,308 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    It is a fallacy to think that support of 29% for Sinn Fein in Assembly elections leads to a border poll. The continued flatlining at best of the nationalist vote below 40% is a better indicator of the max of support for a united Ireland.



  • Registered Users Posts: 296 ✭✭Ham_Sandwich


    It's gonna be fantastic with Sinn Fein in charge in NI and a preview of when we get them in down here as well, free houses, free healthcare, free education, free bins they'll be well looked after up there same as we will when we vote them in.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    SF only need to bide their time , with all that is going on in the world , beit inflation or Putin threatening all sorts , no one is going to indulge unionists on this issue , Labour have a good chance of winning the next british general election so even the London government wont indulge their nonsense , the world doesnt have time to entertain such trivialities in a tiny region of the UK



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,806 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    Slightly less than 40% voting for parties that wants NI not to exist is huge, I'm not an SF supporter by any means, but no way can NI be seen as a normal country with such an electoral situation. Only a small number more voted for unionist parties. Realistically if a border poll happens anytime soon (in the next ten years) it'll be closely fought. As is the case with most referendums it'd only become apparent which way it'll go as the campaign progresses.

    I can see why some people don't want a border poll at any stage, but saying there isn't significant support for a united Ireland is clearly not the case. It may not be enough to win a referendum, but it's definitely significant.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,308 ✭✭✭✭blanch152



    Belgium is a normal country that exists with such an electoral situation. Catalunya, Basque and Scotland are other regions that exist in similar electoral situations.

    Would be expecting 70:30 against unification in a border poll.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,542 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Exactly. The people banging on about a "border pool" appear to Unionists mostly. Shitting themselves over a bogeyman that's probably still many, many, years away. Can't see the Shinners pushing for it in the short term, because they know it'll move voters away from what they were voting for in the first place. The majority of people voting for SF are, more than likely, uninterested in a border poll at the present time, and are more interested in seeking a better future in economic and general living terms.

    All of this "border poll" gibberish seems to be built on one side's fear and fearmongering.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,934 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    You need to understand that the system of government in the north is totally different to here. SF are not 'in charge' for a start. Maybe research is your friend here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,140 ✭✭✭✭end of the road




    the evidence shows otherwise.

    cost of living along with health and education have been the main talking points, a border pole in the long term has only been mentioned a couple of times and it's the minority talking point.

    SF are only going to increase their vote, slow and steady, the DUP are finished, it's over, belligerent unionism is in it's death throws.

    the people know SF can't do anything because the DUP won't work with them and get the assembly up and running and SF will not be blamed for that.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,308 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    So bloody transparent. Belligerent unionism are to blame for no languages act, for the RHI issue, for Brexit, for the Protocol, for everything that is wrong in Northern Ireland, but now, when the shoe is on the other foot.............SF are not in charge.



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