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Energy infrastructure

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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    JCB talk about a super lean engine using a hydrogen to air ratio of 1:100, which they say keeps the temperatures down and stops NOX emissions "at source" by not creating the high temperatures that produce NOX. I'll believe it when I see independent verification of that claim.

    I can't see how they would get around the nox issue with combustion but who knows, maybe. As you say, independent verification by a few recognised bodies would be no harm



  • Registered Users Posts: 216 ✭✭millb


    I see that the EWIC 500 MW interconnector is still not working. It's off line now for a month past the original planned maintenance. Anybody know what went wrong or what the cost of not running this critical infrastructure is costing? Must be millions now.

    All vague but was there another planned maintenance?


    Here is an interesting example of how complex and tight the entire grid system can be

    What a Difference a Day Can Make - VIOTAS reference to amber alerts too little wind and the 70+ max.

    Post edited by millb on


  • Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭getoutadodge


    lets hope so. the commissioning date is listed as 2026! jayzus... things move so slowly in this country



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,782 ✭✭✭Apogee


    Not specific to energy but infrastructure in general. How long this will ultimately take to make its way through the Oireachtas is, however, another story.

    A new division of the High Court is due to be established in early 2023 that will deal solely with planning and environmental issues.

    The new court will be introduced as part of a major reform of planning laws being led by Attorney General Paul Gallagher.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/new-court-to-deal-with-planning-issues-to-be-established-1.4864736



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Mod: Can the discussion on planning go the the thread actually on planning.

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058211322/planning-delays-to-infrastructure#latest



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  • Registered Users Posts: 231 ✭✭specialbyte


    Ireland's first grid scale solar plant was just energised. It's 8MWp in Wicklow. Supported under the government's RESS1 programme. https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2022/0429/1295115-solar-farm/

    Bord Gáis Energy has partnered with Neoen on three solar farms that will provide electricity to the national grid in 2022, including Millvale Solar Farm and two other facilities in Co Kildare and Co Meath. Under an agreement running until December of 2037, Bord Gáis Energy will be the sole offtaker of the electricity produced from the three facilities. 

    Source: https://www.independent.ie/regionals/wicklow/lifestyle/irelands-first-grid-connected-ground-mounted-solar-farm-to-open-at-millvale-41590828.html



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,784 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Saw this on the news recently. Wonderful. Another future mountain of e-waste that will mainly produce electricity when it's least needed (summer daytimes). Also probably being subsidised out the wazoo, wonder how much it's going to add to our already stupidly high electricity costs.

    Another thing I noticed is that when news organisations talk about new weather based renewables projects they always say something to the effect of "this project will provide enough power for X households" when this is simply not true? After all, wind farms and solar panels only provide electricity when the weather happens to be co-operating, regardless of whether it's actually needed, which is why no country has been able to solely rely on them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    By my calculations at best it can only generate an income of around €2million gross a year, cant see viability when you deduct rates, maintenance and wages



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1


    Thats tech is not new it’s just JCB doing a Charleton Heston on it now re combustion engines.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,130 ✭✭✭gjim


    "Saw this on the news recently. Wonderful. Another future mountain of e-waste that will mainly produce electricity when it's least needed (summer daytimes). Also probably being subsidised out the wazoo, wonder how much it's going to add to our already stupidly high electricity costs."

    See this is your problem right there - no facts to back up whatever your argument is. If you can post on a message board, then you can use google to find out what are the actual facts instead of imagining what you think is probably the case.

    In fact you don't even need to google - there's a link, a couple of posts before yours, to the actual RESS auction results which provide the price per MWh this solar producer will be paid and for how long (it's 72.92 euro for 16.5 years in case you're interested in using actual facts).

    Now you could have produced an argument comparing this price with the cost of coal, wind, NG or even nuclear generation if you wanted an actual discussion. I've no idea why you think making baseless claims based on what you "imagine" is the case will convince anyone when they can do their own checking.

    And your "mountain of e-waste" claim is also baseless - again this was discussed a few pages back - along with links to various studies. The failure rates and degradation rates of solar PV panels are both tiny - under 2% of modern panels fail every 25 years.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,130 ✭✭✭gjim


    The operation and maintenance costs for ground mounted solar PV farms are small - studies in the US suggest costs as low as $13k per MW per year - so in this case $100k, even if you double it for "Irish" prices, it's not going to eat into the profitability.

    The costs are dominated by the capital cost of the panels which are/were about $1m per MW so about $8m for this installation - there is unlikely to be an Irish premium involved in this aspect.

    I'm not sure what the rates story is, to be honest. But there's plenty of profit left over after the capital and running costs. And for almost zero risk.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,782 ✭✭✭Apogee


    CSO have released some data on the profile of electricity users in 2021 (links to Tables in tweet):




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    A good look at the various options for power generation from waves, the challenges and the prospects




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Makes sense that a Healy-Rae would be involved in this farce. Hopefully the planning regulator forces a reversal

    All areas open to consideration for wind energy in the Draft Kerry County Development Plan are now being removed with the exception of Kilgarvan townlands designated on a map, it has been decided in the second and final phase of consultation.


    However, council management has warned the proposal is bound to provoke the ire of the Office of the Planning Regulator, which already told the council not to “unreasonably limit wind energy development” in the light of national policy.


    Pleas from county manager Moira Murrell that the move would draw the intervention of the planning regulator were ignored by councillors.


    “The planning regulator is the most powerful unelected official in the country and the only way for a local authority is to go to court,” said Cllr Johnny Healy-Rae. 




  • Registered Users Posts: 231 ✭✭specialbyte


    I love how the planning regulator is getting all of the blame in these disputes. The planning regulator is an official who makes a recommendation to the minister. The Minister of State for Planning Peter Burke (FG) is the one who actually orders/directs the councillors to remove sections from their development plans. Really it is a political decision. The planning regulator is a handy scapegoat in these disputes. A court case is highly unlikely to succeed as a result.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,673 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    A reversal of what?? - north Kerry is already half destroyed with windfarms, including in areas that are meant to be SPAs for rare species. As for the planning regulator, they should be more concerned about the number of wind farms, either planned or built that are clearly not in compliance with various EU directives etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,717 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Is there a ready calculated breakdown of the installed wind capacity per county in Ireland?

    It would be interesting to see which counties really have the most per hectare.

    [Edit] So interesting, I spent an hour grappling with Excel



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irish_counties_by_area

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wind_farms_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

    Post edited by josip on


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,435 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    It'd also be interesting to see where the remaining large suitable wind sites are ...

    I assume altitude and proximity to the coast are factors , (as well as transmission network )

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,717 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Coastal doesn't seem to be as big a factor as altitude. But there's still a big divergence from county to county.

    Waterford with the Comeraghs and Knockmealdowns has 3 times less installed than Kilkenny.

    But Wexford has a lot for a county that doesn't have much windward mountain side. So coastal must be a factor there. I suspect Wexford has more coastline that's available (non beach/residential) that can be used. The slobs would be ideal I reckon. Bird => nuts :)

    I don't know why Wicklow is such a laggard. They'd be 40% less if it weren't for the Arklow bank. Have county councils been able to influence policy up to now?

    Post edited by josip on


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,089 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The tech isn't new, but even trials to date have been incredibly limited. BMW Hydrogen 7 I think was the only one of any volume and that was a: 100 cards and b: nearly two decades ago!


    If this turns out to be practical and safe - I wouldn't be confident of either - the Bamford family now has bus manufacturing also and a long range double decker bus (compared to battery electric) running on hydrogen would probably sell quite well.



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    “a long range double decker bus (compared to battery electric) running on hydrogen would probably sell quite well.”

    Wright Bus (now owned by the Bramford family that also own JCB) already has Hydrogen Fuel Cell busses and three of them are already operating with Bus Eireann/NTA on commuter services.

    Hydrogen buses a ‘momentous step forward’ in decarbonising public transport




  • Registered Users Posts: 68,089 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Fuel cell and direct combustion are quite different in terms of potential range though.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Direct combustion for buses is a non starter for busses as it isn’t zero emissions, despite what JCB say. It maybe extremely low, but not zero and the policy for new bus purchases across most regulatory authorities across Ireland and most of Europe is zero emissions only, so either EV or Hydrogen Fuel Cell.

    JCB themselves say in the above video that the future is HFC, as soon as it is more robust for building sites/mines, however buses don’t really face the same issues.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Combustion makes sense in almost zero cases though. It's less efficient in terms of % energy converted to motion, uses more hydrogen so has higher running costs over time, requires double the amount of onboard hydrogen storage capacity for the same distance travelled etc. Thats before we even talk about the emissions




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    There's finally some movement on district heating systems at a govt level. Loads of reports and analysis etc still to be done for the next few years but its a start

    The District Heating Steering Group was formed under the Climate Action Plan 2021, as part of the Government’s commitment to further the expansion of district heating in the State. The Steering Group coordinates the rollout of policies and measures to support district heating in Ireland.

    The Steering Group will report annually to Government on steps taken to ensure district heating is developed in a structured way, which will include outlining actions taken to support the expansion of district heating and the development of an appropriate legislative basis, to include advice on transposition of EU Directives. The Steering Group will make evidence-based recommendations to the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications as to appropriate targets for district heating.

    Four key areas of work have been identified:

    Regulation

    • The Steering Group will make recommendations in relation to the regulatory needs of the Irish market, including the rights of consumers and the rules for operating district heating systems
    • The Group will also advise on legislative changes that may be necessary to support the rollout of District Heating in Ireland, in addition to the regulatory requirements of EU legislation (Renewable Energy Directive 2018/2001/EU and Energy Efficiency Directive 2018/2002/EU)

    Finance

    • The Steering Group will examine the costs and optimal funding options, including consideration of the policy and regulation options that might be used for attracting private sector investment for district heating and make recommendations to the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications

    Planning and Regulations

    • The Steering Group will examine the necessary guidelines under the Planning and Development Act and planning policy development to support district heating. This will include any required standards to ensure a consistent approach to the development of district heating in Ireland
    • Consideration will also be given to policy development on building regulations and recommendations for retrofitting existing properties for district heating

    Research

    • Taking account of the detailed research now available in the National Heat Study, the Group will examine the additional research requirements of the sector. It will make recommendations as to research prioritisation and have an oversight and quality assurance role in research projects

    The District Heating Steering Group is chaired by Barry Quinlan, Assistant Secretary in the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications with responsibility for Energy.

    The following organisations are members:

    • Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications (DECC)
    • Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage (DHLGH)
    • Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland (SEAI)
    • Commission for Regulation of Utilities (CRU)
    • National Development Finance Agency
    • Dublin City Council
    • South Dublin County Council
    • Limerick City and County Council
    • City of Dublin Energy Management Agency (CoDEMA)
    • ESB Networks
    • Gas Networks Ireland (GNI)

    Representatives of other organisations may also be added to the Steering Group by the Chair, as necessary.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,130 ✭✭✭gjim


    Yeah combustion is just not a runner at all.

    But even fuel cells make no sense to me when you think of the entire process.

    One option for a carbon-free vehicle is take electricity, plug in your vehicle, charge the battery and off you go - accounting for all losses 70% to 90% of the electrical energy gets transferred to kinetic energy to move a BEV. The only infrastructure you need are copper wires.

    The second is, take electricity, use electrolysis to generate hydrogen (20% to 40% losses), compress it or liquify it or use (toxic) ammonia to store it, transport it to storage at a hydrogen station, where it gets transferred to the vehicle and stored on-board, then use s fuel cell to turn it back into electricity (another 40% losses) before you get any kinetic energy out of the system. Studies show end-to-end efficiency is 25% to 30% versus 70% to 90% for BEVs.

    And all the time you're dealing with a highly explosive gas which is almost impossible to handle without some amount of leakage which requires very careful engineering.

    Does the "fast fill" advantage really justify all this massive increase in complexity, cost, engineering and huge loss of efficiency - consuming 3 times the electricity to move the vehicle the same distance? Not to mention that the inevitable hydrogen that will leak (as the smallest atom, it can get through anything) is now known to have a large indirect greenhouse gas effect by slowing the natural decomposition of methane. It just seems daft to me.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    there's issues for sure, but it makes sense for some sectors e.g. very heavy equipment in use for very long period, where refueling is more feasible than recharging.

    It also has a place in the back-up / remote power generator area, replacing diesel generators



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    gjim, agreed, hydrogen, even fuel cells, doesn’t make sense anywhere that batteries work.

    So cars, vans, even light trucks will go EV.

    However there are more niche applications where battery technology as it currently exists won’t work, either because of the weight of the batteries or charging time.

    The example that comes to my mind is the intercity coach. Think of the coach that runs non stop for 3 hours from Dublin to Cork, then turns around and does the return journey, multiple times a day, often close to 24/7.

    Batteries currently won’t work for that, charging is too slow with the quick turn around times. Perhaps a battery swap would be a complicated solution. But I’d say Hydrogen fuel cell, while less efficient and more expensive, might for now be the only zero emission solution that works for it.

    Long distant bus and coaches, some train services, heavy trucking, aircraft, ships, etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,130 ✭✭✭gjim


    DaCor and bk - sure I accept that there might be some niches where currently batteries don't work.

    But that just makes providing all the infrastructure to support creating, storing, transporting and using hydrogen even less economic.

    To be honest, for the coach case, battery swap sounds like a hell of a lot easier in terms of technology than what would be involved in building the infrastructure to support hydrogen. And unless very little of the hydrogen leaks into the atmosphere during the process, you've only reduced but not eliminated GW over using fossil fuels.

    And for many fleet/commercial uses, you'd need very strong reasons to pick hydrogen since the fuel will always cost 3 or 4 times that of electricity.

    And battery tech is improving all the time - we're not seeing huge break-throughs every year but slowly and inexorably it's happening; the average BEV range has doubled in the last 8 years, prices are falling all the time, faster charging is more common, etc.

    I normally discount all reports of battery break-throughs but for example Toyota have actually demonstrated a vehicle running on a solid state battery - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfSSHYOrQNI - if this pans out, then this will be a revolution - 2 to 10 times the energy density, safer, longer lasting, etc.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    One wee fault George, a lot of sites don't have power, maybe a wee genie to boil the kettle but nothing to charge 20 tonne of industrial machinery . Green cnuts are going to have to grasp reality and understand that big yellow diggers have to run on diesel and no level of green wa##ing is going to change that



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