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Energy infrastructure

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  • Registered Users Posts: 217 ✭✭millb




    Is this Electric Interconnect correct and is the EWIC not working this past 3 weeks? If it's out - that would be

    significant and no wonder prices are jumping like hell.. Anybody know anything about this - Only the Moyle seems to be doing it's job since 14th March?




  • Registered Users Posts: 217 ✭✭millb



    Maybe the "Foreseen Maintenance" just dragged on ..........



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,999 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Solar is cheap and getting cheaper. And it's very low maintenance. It's seasonal but we have log days in summer and could potentially export some power in late evenings to places further south or west.

    It should be possible to install 3GW of it on farm buildings most of which will likely have a electrical connection nearby. Did I mention that solar is cheap and getting cheaper ?


    Fishing ? oh don't get me started. Too many big efficient boats chasing a fixed amount of fish. A boat with a crew of 13 holds 55% of the Northern Ireland quota. That suggests a smaller boat with 11 crew could hover up the rest.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,440 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Yup, panels are cheap ,but Long days don't really do much if the panels face south ! , And facing some east and some west means even more panels to get 1 summer's day of energy - rule out most of winter ,the wet and cloudy days and it significantly reduces the power of that cheap solar -

    It should be reasonably easy to calculate how much daily sunshine is in a given location over the course of a year , factor in the direction and angle of the sun , and how efficient your panels are -commercialy I doubt you'd make back the energy invested in the panels ,the transport, the mounting and transmission.

    but don't worry they're cheap - and if they're "costing "more energy than they're delivering then the panels are creating a problem not fixing it ..

    New tech is coming .. better panels ect . But it's not here yet ..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,999 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    New tech is coming .. better panels ect . But it's not here yet .. It's continuous improvement. a tenth of a percent here , a fifth of a percent there, higher voltage tolerance so you can stick one extra panel on a string. Lots of little lab proven tricks alls waiting to be commercialised.

    Norway with it's green energy is a major producer of silicon and you don't need to do zone refining for panels so way less energy needed than previous generations of panels.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    Farm buildings generally don’t have significant electric connections. Why would they have? There isn’t high demand.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,130 ✭✭✭gjim


    Have you any actual data to prove your specific claim that solar PV is not viable in Ireland? E.g. capacity factors, specific yield (kWh/kWp), seasonality metrics, degradation rates, etc?

    The potential and viability of solar PV is decided by science/engineering. You can be absolutely sure that the companies and countries that are investing billions in solar have "done the math".

    The numbers are easy to access - here's a per country calculation done by the World Bank - https://documents.worldbank.org/en/publication/documents-reports/documentdetail/466331592817725242/global-photovoltaic-power-potential-by-country . No question that Ireland is one of the worst countries in the world for solar but yet the kWh/kWp is only a bit under half that of the best countries in the world.

    Which means that it's commercially viable at scale in Ireland with todays technology. This is proven by the RESS auctions - quoting from https://www.nsenergybusiness.com/news/ireland-provisional-results-ress-auction/

    "EirGrid, which implemented the auction process for RESS 1, said that the average strike price for all projects was €74.08/MWh. For solar projects, it stands at €72.92/MWh."

    So even before the arrival of newer tech and expected improvements, solar can deliver electricity in Ireland at rates (just) below the average for renewables. Surely you agree that these privately financed companies bidding for solar in the RESS auction will have done their sums? Like the Danes, Germans and Dutch (particularly not known for their financial naivity) will have done the sums before rolling out solar capacity as fast as they can.

    "costing more energy than their delivering"? The idea that a factory producing panels would require more energy than generated during the expected life time makes no sense at all. The degradation rates in HOT countries (where panels degrade faster) is about 0.5% a year. This means they are still expected to operate at nearly 90% efficiency after 25 years or 60% after 100 years. Basically, unless you take a hammer to a solar panel, they effectively last forever.

    Like I say, Ireland is one of the worst countries for solar but that doesn't mean it isn't viable. And it provides a huge benefit to the grid by being uncorrelated with the other variable source electricity - wind. It simply comes down to numbers and, sorry, the numbers prove you wrong.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,750 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Many of the big dairy farms would have 3 phase and a 3 phase back up generator to boot.

    Dairy farms only constitute around 15% of Ireland's farms though.



  • Registered Users Posts: 971 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    I checked out the generation status on the UK National grid and what you are saying is correct. Not much wind today but blue sky and 10% of electricity is coming from PV.




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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,953 ✭✭✭timmyntc




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    In terms of wind & solar, I don't know. There are grids that are capable of 100% renewable through hydro though, Norway & Brazil come to mind.

    Once we get a few batteries and flywheels added to the grid, it'll be a straight path to 100%



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,783 ✭✭✭Apogee


    ABP give approval for 300ac/734,000sq m PV farm in Meath. No MW quoted, but probably ~100MW based on SEAI numbers.

    Blog here has good list of proposed PV projects:




  • Registered Users Posts: 8,440 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Peter Zeihan (@PeterZeihan) Tweeted: 4/


    The red zones are the only places where solar intensity is sufficiently high for panels to make economic sense without massive subsidies.

    The red and orange are the locations where it makes environmental sense. https://t.co/qqPOTAdvf0 https://twitter.com/PeterZeihan/status/989868683395772416?s=20&t=y8vcAPKr-lgsSXI0gD6Bfw

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,440 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    But to be honest if a private company are happy to put solar panels up and only get paid a reasonable amount for what they actually deliver - then happy days ...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    This really depends on the price of gas and carbon.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,999 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    The plan is to get up to 95% eventually. That's why they are setting up the big flywheel things.

    The other 5% could come from hydro or pumped storage or burning biofuels or waste.


    At present we need some large generators on load at all times across the country for grid stability. The 75% non-synchronous capability means we could accommodate three times that amount of wind. But if we were to export more that was produced by the generators then from a certain point of view we'd have the country powered by 100% renewables.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,999 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    There's lots of farms and even small connections add up. (137,000 x 29kVA = 4GW)

    In addition to dairy farms there's other animal husbandry like poultry and pigs, places that have heating or cooling, workshops. So lots of farms would be above the minimum already. Poles are already in place so no planning permission issues if upgrading the cables.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    i don’t think you can really expect to import or export a constant 29kVA on every rural single phase domestic type connection at once. I don’t think there is anything like that amount of transformer capacity. I would expect a domestic connection to have a couple of kVA of transformer capacity upstream.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,130 ✭✭✭gjim


    This guy has just pulled this claim out of nowhere. He has no scientific or engineering background. His area of study is international diplomacy and his (obviously self-authored) wikipedia page is a fluff piece is marked with a warning that "This article contains content that is written like an advertisement.".

    In contrast, the studies I linked to were backed by internationally recognised scientific bodies produced by engineers and scientists.

    But studies and opinions matter little if you look at what's actually happening in the markets.

    The 20 or 30 solar investors who bid at the RESS auctions in Ireland are receiving less subsidies than the average wind farm - which this guy claims is impossible.

    The dutch have 12GW of installed solar capacity which did not and does not require "massive subsidies".

    An explosion of solar in Denmark - https://www.pv-magazine.com/2022/03/02/unsubsidized-utility-scale-solar-changing-shape-of-danish-pv-market/ - is driven by completely unsubsidised installations:

    "Flemming Vejby Kristensen, from the Danish PV association Solcelleforening, explained the surprising performance achieved by Denmark’s PV market in 2021, in which around 667.6MW of PV capacity was deployed. Around 94% of this growth is coming from large scale unsubsidized solar projects and the segment’s main driver has been the willingness of big corporations to buy green electricity under bilateral PPAs."

    Again this is impossible according to your guy. Your guy is simply wrong.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,130 ✭✭✭gjim


    Another example: https://www.arla.com/company/news-and-press/2022/pressrelease/new-solar-park-in-denmark/

    "Arla Foods announces ambitious collaboration with the renewable energy company Better Energy regarding four new solar parks that will cover approximately one third of Arla's electricity consumption in Denmark by 2024. It is the most extensive agreement on renewable electricity from a Danish company without public subsidies in Danish history"

    A completely unsubsidised purely commercial decision. Despite the claims of someone on twitter, solar PV works and is viable in northern Europe.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,440 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Honestly - if a private company is doing it and not expecting subsidies then happy days - the panels are getting better all the time ...

    I'm amazed that more isn't being made of adjustable mountings , even just a single plane type , to get more out of the panels ,and spread the production through the day .

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,999 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    You can get a decent increase in output by tilting the panels every few months. For floating panels on lakes or reservoirs you can use a circular layout put a loop round it using ropes driven from the shore to track the sun.

    I remember seeing something about a farm in Africa? where they had a lad going around to each of the panels and pulling a lever to tilt them. It was way cheaper than any mechanised system because it was a massive farm.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,440 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    A fairly simple ,single axis tilt , so perpendicular facing east - horizontal for mid day sun , and perpendicular facing west again - either a small electric motor , pneumatics or hydraulics , if the panels are in straight lines one or two motors could slowly tilt loads of them ..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,999 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Motors, control systems, maintenance. It might be cheaper to just get more panels.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,783 ✭✭✭Apogee




  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,999 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight



    Satellites would use the same technology used to fly helicopters back in the 1960's. That's the part that works.

    Putting 2,000 tonnes into orbit to generate 2GW for £17Bn. Unless SpaceX get Starship up and running that's an extremely optimistic price to put rocks into space. The costs of the ISS are an order of magnitude higher and it's only a fifth of the mass.

    Putting 2,000 tonnes into orbit to generate 2GW. There are a few problems. Unless you use ultra efficient panels you'll need to collect 20GW of solar radiation to generate 4GW of electricity of which 2GW can be send down as microwaves. That's 18GW of heat to dissipate and you can't use convection. Mirrors would be lighter and have less to go wrong.

    Putting 2,000 tonnes into orbit. The trick is to keep it there. Low orbit would mean drag and continuous boosts with associated costs. Higher up would dramatically increase the costs.

    I can't help feeling that solar panels down here and storage would be way cheaper.


    Oh and the anti-5G crowd will have kittens.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,130 ✭✭✭gjim


    Meh - it reminds me of the plans for covering the Sahara in solar panels and building massive inter-connectors to export the power to Europe. It kinda/arguably made sense when panels were considered somewhat expensive and it seemed important to maximise their efficiency. But the 90% drop in panel prices in a decade has completely undermined the financial basis of all these ideas. It's now significantly cheaper to build 4 times as many panels in northern Europe even if they operate at half the efficiency than it is to site them in Africa and build the inter-connector infrastructure.

    Same with using mechanical systems to maximise panel efficiency - at some point (that we seemed to have passed), it's more economic to just add more super cheap panels, than to build and maintain auxiliary mechanical systems.

    It reminds me of when microprocessors displaced "big iron" processors in super-computing - they just became so cheap that all their deficiencies in terms of performance and features could effectively be compensated for by just using more of them. Now all the biggest fastest super computers in the world are based on commodity intel/amd chips - the days of custom super-advanced designs that those of Cray are over.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,487 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    If this flight of fancy of putting huge solar generators of power in space and beaming all this energy back to earth was actually put into practice, what would happen to an aircraft that stayed into the beam?

    I thought so!



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