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Picard 2x09 - 'Hide and Seek' ~~ { ** Spoilers Within ** }

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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,742 ✭✭✭Evade


    If it came to it not-Laris could probably fix it so they could take the long way home in a stasis pod.



  • Posts: 11,614 [Deleted User]


    Despite all that filler, her role has not been fleshed out at all. She is a watcher, or a supervisor or whatever, but did Romulus have Warp in 2024? Is she a time traveller too? You can't create this new character and then just tack her on for the ride.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,785 ✭✭✭Rawr


    I'm guessing the Romulans were at least Space-faring by 2024. Centuries earlier they did leave Vulcan, and 200-odd years after 2024 they had a Space Empire covering a chunk of the Beta Quadrant. Thus I guess they probably had warp by 2024, but likely not very high Warp Factors, maybe up to Warp 2 / 3.



  • Posts: 11,614 [Deleted User]


    OK, but, Non-Laris has been sent to watch Renee Picard because her role in the future is important, which means the Romulans in 2024 have some knowledge of the future, so even if warp-capable, were they time travelling in 2024? And if so, does that not open up a whole branch of questions?



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,742 ✭✭✭Evade


    Not-Laris being Romulan doesn't automatically mean the Romulan government or wider society know anything about time travel. The Watchers are an independent organisation aren't they?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,837 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Her tech is the same as Gary 7s who was from the 20th century but gifted the tech by powerful aliens. Any tech not Laris has would be theirs and not an indication of Romulan tech.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,785 ✭✭✭Rawr


    There's that. Not-Laris may have been Romulan...but she was a Watcher, which means she probably answered to The Watchers and not necessarily Romulus.



  • Registered Users Posts: 604 ✭✭✭a_squirrelman


    Well, that was just not very good. And the Emergency Combat Hologram, sigh.



  • Registered Users Posts: 31,208 ✭✭✭✭~Rebel~


    It’s just gotten more annoying as it’s gone on… so much unnecessary stuff smushed into this season, when they would have been much better served letting it breath and spending more time on a few important things rather than this scattershot of half-telling a dozen stories. It’s like the writers have zero confidence in their ability to write a good story, and so just keep throwing ever-changing nonsense out there to keep things muddled and moving.

    I also presume they had a bunch of actors under contract, so when they realized it made no sense to include their characters, they just jammed in loads of mega-coincidences of bumping into everyone’s ancestors who look identical to their children’s children’s children’s children’s children’s children (etc etc). there are so many familiar faces magically involved that we’re veering into “it was all a dream” territory.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,837 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Episode 10 ends with Picard stepping out of a sonic shower.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 325 ✭✭eadrom


    A thing is too, and maybe I wrote this before but it's still annoying me, if the reason Guinan doesn't know about Time's Arrow is because this is the past of the future which shouldn't exist and which they're trying to prevent from ever happening, then wtf happens to any of these characters should our heros succeed?! Like this Guinan, Rios' girlfriend, the X-Files guy, Soji-or-whoever, everyone.

    Because if Time's Arrow didn't exist because this isn't the "right" timeline, despite the change-causing event not having happened yet from where they're standing (which always seemed silly to me but aparently that's what we're going with), then they're as much condemning these people to oblivion as they are saving themselves.

    They'll prevent the change, restore the timeline, Time's Arrow is back on. None of these people can exist.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,130 ✭✭✭ilovesmybrick


    Well, to be fair I was one of those handwaving away the Times Arrow stuff, though in my defense I thought that perhaps it was some smart writing.

    Now though I'll happily admit I overestimated the writers. Presumably they're creating another mirror universe, to add to all the rest. They're taking all the bigger tropes of Star Trek and running away with them, with absolutely no understanding of how they worked in old Trek. I never like mirror universe episodes, hated them in DS9 (mostly, loved Smiley). TNG had some great Time Travel/Timey Wimey epidodes (Cause and Effect being my usualt TNG go to for that stuff, Voyagers Year of Hell a close second), and the Borg were great in small doses, which was Voyagers error.

    These shows are taking the broad ideas, and applying them with no nuance or care. What annoys me more about the Guinan stuff are the introduction of the magic Q brandy and the psychic powers out of no where. Sure, maybe El Aurians always had these abilities, we know Guinan was a bit of a mysterious character. I don't particularly have an issue with giving more depth to her species. What does annoy me is that neither of these revelations added one bit to the story, bar fixing writing issues. The magic brandy didn't work, and Q somehow found her in FBI headquarters. There were ways to get Q and Guinan together without the drink, almost any other way. And the psychic powers, why? What need was there for that but to tell Picard "Maybe he's sad about something in the past". Again, not necessary, there were simpler ways to do this. Though it could be that I found that whole FBI setup an utter waste. Which to my mind means these were shoehorned in for the sole purpose of filling minutes.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,864 ✭✭✭De Bhál


    Just watched it. Can't believe how poor that was.

    Loads of well written speeches shoved into a laughable story.

    Grade A muck



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,257 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    I enjoyed the Picard mother back story parts.

    The bits with the Borg guards and green gun sights was just really poor stuff.


    The lonely Borg stuff makes no sense since they are all about perfection like the Omega Particle. Literally nerfed the Borg threat. Borg were about the collective and endless assimilating in the quest for perfection. Ah sure we'll see how it turns out.


    Needs more Q. Presuming we get a lot of him next week.

    Fcuk Putin. Glory to Ukraine!



  • Registered Users Posts: 31,208 ✭✭✭✭~Rebel~


    As a story, the Picard Mother stuff has been alright in how its been told... I'm just not sure what the point is though.

    Like, what does it get us? Does it enhance the 'story of Jean-Luc Picard'? Does it retrospectively make certain decisions and moments we've seen before carry new meaning? Does it answer the question posited at the start of the season of why can Picard not commit to a partner? I'm not really sure it does, and other backstories they could've told would certainly have done a better job of it, and felt more directly satisfying.

    Even if they wanted to keep the deep personal loss/trauma angle, something closer to the central relationship in Solaris would have done a better job of creating the basis of a character who had experienced such loss with a partner that they threw themselves completely into their work and career, and closed off their emotional side as much as they could, embracing pragmatism and achieving the greater good.

    (Or if they wanted to use a trauma from in-universe, both becoming Locutus and then being severed, and what happened in The Inner Light, would've been good basis for that story. In the former case, maybe not being able to open back up again after the ultimate sense of connection was lost, or in the latter's case, having a whole life, a wife, kids, and grandkids all snatched away from him in an instant).

    Post edited by ~Rebel~ on


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,785 ✭✭✭Rawr


    It feels like this season has committed multiple sins of introducing potentially excellent plot threads, and then just dropping them in favor of doing the next thing:

    Earth Confederation: An excellent antagonist who could have been a good continious threat thoughout the season if they had a Conferderation team also turn up in 2024, trying to prevent Picard & Co from destroying their future. Mostly dropped entirely when they got to 2024.

    The Borg Queen: Potential return to form for the Borg Queen, with her loose in a densely populated American city. Turns into little more then Jurati wandering the town eating batteries and breaking the odd window. Whole Borg dropped after they get a good talking to, and promise to be nice.

    Guinan: Potential exploration of Guinan's past. The El-Arian is instead used for social commentary and mostly dropped.

    Q: Potentially great villain of the show as an unhinged and dying member of the Q-Continuum. A call-back to his menacing introduction in TNG. He barely turns up in half of the show, and I almost get the feeling that they forgot about him.

    Soogn & The Eugentics Wars: Potential setup for the Eugentics Wars which could have a good link to the Earth Confederation (if Khan etc..had won). They instead use him as an excuse to include Soji's actress in this season and becomes a cartoon villain with his "Borg" sidekicks. They should have leaned into a Khan origin there.

    Picard himself: When we started the flashbacks, I was imagining a much better character development arc than what we got. I had hoped that this would serve as a book-end to Picard's story, the source of his desire to join Starfleet as well as a reason why he stayed away from romantic partners. Yvette Picard's fate could have been used as a driving force for this, but instead introduced a tragic end for her that didn't really feed into Picard's character arc I feel. The fact that this plot has been crammed into 1 season, instead of 2 seasons as I had expected originally means that it's now too late. What's worse is that they had used a lot of screen time teasing the same reveals again & again, when they didn't have that much time to waste.

    Red Letter Media didn't hate the first few episodes in their earlier reviews of Season 2, but pointed out a concern that many of the long list of producers in the credits were the same as Season 1. While still hoping for the best I was afraid of this myself. These writers are frustratingly inept at their jobs, and I fear that this week's finale might add Season 2 to an unfortunately growling list of Trek seasons I will not bother re-watching.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,130 ✭✭✭ilovesmybrick


    @Rawr Yup, and to follow up on the Red Letter Media one, they published their new video last night. I actually was avoiding them for quite a while, as I did feel last year they were being overly harsh. However, they're also of the opinion that they're done with it. They also brought up how they felt that the new Trek is somewhat tainting their appreciation of older Trek but unfortunately there are so many new Trek series now it will just continue on it's way. I'm not sure if it's just me, but I could do with a break from all these series at the moment. Between Discovery and Picard and quite burned out with the wasted potential and opportunities. Don't get me wrong, I can't wait for new Lower Decks, whenever that is, but the downward spiral on this season of Picard has been so incredibly disappointing, especially following straight on from Discovery, which is always a disappointment.

    Honestly never thought I'd want a break in Star Trek, but here we are.




  • Registered Users Posts: 24,837 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    As of this week we will have more shows for this era then Bermantrek although at least this era varies the shows more. LD and PRO can't really be classed as a group with live action like Bermantrek.

    I definitely felt the last break was good for the show.

    I've come to realize I actually don't like or care about way more Trek than I love. TNG, DS9 and most of the movies are about all I care about from the before time. Voyager had the odd episode and ENT was crap. TOS I appreciate as a show of it's time but don't really watch it. LD is the only current show I will remember exists in a year.

    A big thing for me with people like RLM is when they say "they are done with it" will they stop reviewing or just hate watch. For the life of me I do not understand hate watching.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,593 ✭✭✭JayRoc


    I'm in the minority in that I don't like The Inner Light.


    Primarily because it's just too big to ever come back from, but apart from the episode Lessons it's barely ever referenced again



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,785 ✭✭✭Rawr


    In fairness to RLM, they do stop watching shows when they get sick of them. They hadn't watched / reviewed Season 3 or 4 of Discovery, despite that probably being an easy draw for viewers. (I loved their hilarious roasting of Discovery Season 2). They don't seem to be like the Nerdrotics / Midnights Edges / Doomcocks of the world where their entire MO is to bemoan stuff and conflate bad production work as some kind of Culture War exercise. That kind of hate-watching is just exhausting. At least with RLM there appears to be an attempt at a light-heart yet cyincal banter about all of the silly choices made in the writing, mostly done for a bit of a laugh by the feel of things. I guess if they feel like they can't do that, they don't bother.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,742 ✭✭✭Evade




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,593 ✭✭✭JayRoc


    Picard's experience in best of Both Worlds basically lasted a few hours, but had numerous episodes and even a movie calling back to it.


    He was supposed to have lived an entire lifetime in the Inner Light, and he just went back to normal for the next episode? I know it's a TV show and we shouldn't hyper analyse this stuff but it always annoyed the hell out of me



  • Registered Users Posts: 325 ✭✭eadrom


    that’s the nature of the story telling though. Who really knows how much time passed between episodes or seasons, or what they got up to. Granted Inner Light is a bigger than usual event for Picard but still, it’s plausible that a lot of therapy happened in between.

    With new Trek that’s sadly not the case. No time to breath, no time for down time or in-between time. Everything is the most important thing to ever happen, until a little later that same evening when it’s not and it’s barely spoken about again.

    i don’t want a whole season of Star Trek dealing with the crew’s emotional and psychological trauma caused by any number of episodes, or their poorly mothers.



  • Posts: 11,614 [Deleted User]


    I misread that at first, I thought it said "Picard pops out a sonic screwdriver".

    TBH, thats how Episode is shaping up.

    I honestly expect something along the lines of the below for the finale.

    Picard: "I just realized, the engine of a Tesla electric car is effectively a very small EPS conduit, so.. if we modulate its frequency..

    Raffi: "And then polarise it..

    Picard: "We can create a wormhole back to our own time!"

    Raffi: "Well done J-L!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,837 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Oh god Jeff Bezos is gonna appear and loan Picard his peni$ rocket to complete the Europa mission.



  • Posts: 11,614 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users Posts: 12,912 ✭✭✭✭flazio


    I thought the Cardassian torture in Chain of Command was much crueler then the Borg assimilation. Going back to normal after that always bugged me.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,742 ✭✭✭Evade


    It's like never seeing them go to the toilet, it's so mundane we we don't need to see it. I think First Contact was the first time those bodily functioned were even referenced.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,742 ✭✭✭Evade


    It was a lifetime of experience but not necessarily a big harrowing event unlike the Chief's second life on DS9. Plus he was in his sixties by the time that happened and not exactly unaccustomed to losing people.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 31,208 ✭✭✭✭~Rebel~


    More like 50 surely? It was 30 years ago, so Patrick Stewart would've been around 50 then, and I don't think they consciously made Picard a different age that i can remember.

    I was the same as JayRoc after I first saw it alright, where the weight of what had just happened to him felt absolutely massive to me, so it was a bit weird to just not come up again. Like, he raised children, and grandchildren, and spent however many remaining decades with his wife, and that was all suddenly just gone. Even just the fact that he'd have to go back through ~30 years of this other life's memories to get back to the Picard memories from before. At the time as a young fella I was thinking, "christ, he'll need to be retrained and everything - he's been out of command for decades!"

    But yeah, with all the incredible trauma we know he's already been through between one thing and another, it's hard to see this repressed childhood memory they're now exploring as being a worthwhile story creation. If they had to do a backstory, using one more focused on some past relationship would've felt more fitting I think.

    Part of me wonders if they just decided they wanted to end up with this big action set piece off in this big old house in the middle of nowhere, and then worked backwards to justify it and try to give it some weight with the memory stuff.



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