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Why is space for cars seen as sacrosanct?

123457

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,941 ✭✭✭growleaves


    Har de har har har

    Ever heard of south county Dublin (with a pop. of over 200,000 people) or Wicklow?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,163 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that the vast majority of that 200,000 population do not have to climb steep hills regularly.

    i'm also going to go out on a limb and suggest that people with mobility issues would be best advised not to live in very hilly areas. but regardless, again, we're not trying to trap the elderly in their homes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,395 ✭✭✭McGrath5


    Incredible levels of straw clutching by some people on this thread and depressing the amount of views for why things should stay the same. If people have options to walk, cycle, use public transport or drive they will pick the most convenient option for them. Here is a great video on how good driving in the Netherlands is.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,941 ✭✭✭growleaves


    That's why I say we should expand public transport massively. But I've already had one 'environmentalist' on this thread tell me it's too impractical/expensive.

    Here are some questions I'd like answered:

    When are Britain (our closest neighbour, with similar aims) going to reopen the railways they closed from the '60s onwards?

    Should we grow more of our own food as a country if we are insistent on winding down our transport infrastructure?

    Should we greatly expand our native manufacturing sector if we are insistent on winding down our transport infrastructure?

    Could horses play some kind of role in this new world (since they filled the same role that cars did for centuries)?

    A bland insistence that everyone can just cycle while ripping up roads doesn't fill me with confidence. Where all the ideas and creative solutions for this 'sustainable future'...? *crickets*



  • Registered Users Posts: 269 ✭✭JayPS 2288


    How much of an impact would it have on society if all on-street parking was removed from towns?

    I recently went to Swords, Co. Dublin. I wanted to go to Pavillons for a specific shop when I was already in the area for another reason. I accidentally went down Main Street instead of the Malahide Road Roundabout.

    The traffic was chaotic, herringbone parking. It took ages, and I mean ages to get through the town. I can only imagine how stressful it’d be for buses.

    Why aren’t private cars banned from Swords? After the Garda station and where the apartments are above Swords (which obviously need to keep their underground parking) there’s no need for private cars to be trundling through Swords.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,797 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    Who suggested winding down our transport infrastructure?

    1. Who cares what Britain do?

    2. Yes we should try produce more of our own food

    3. I dont think so

    4. What role do you possibly see horses playing?

    As far as I can see no one suggested banning the car or trucks. Or ripping up roads, except reducing 2 lanes to 1 and putting in a bike lane, but then the road is still available for transport.

    Suggesting that the majority of car journeys under 4km could be replaced by a bike isn't suggesting banning the car. Suggesting that town centres are nicer without cars isn't suggesting banning the car.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,287 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    That's why I say we should expand public transport massively. But I've already had one 'environmentalist' on this thread tell me it's too impractical/expensive.

    I don't know who said what you are claiming but there is a large expansion of public transport but the biggest problems it is facing is from motorists who dont want to share the roads.

    When are Britain (our closest neighbour, with similar aims) going to reopen the railways they closed from the '60s onwards.

    I'm not sure what another country has to do with Irish policy but maybe email their DoT. 

    Britain has left the EU - should we emulate that policy?

    Should we grow more of our own food as a country if we are insistent on winding down our transport infrastructure?

    Who is suggesting that we wind down our transport infrastructure? Are you misunderstanding the argument for alternatives or being deliberately disingenuous?

    Should we greatly expand our native manufacturing sector if we are insistent on winding down our transport infrastructure?

    No harm in expanding our manufacturing sector but again with the twisting of the argument.

    Could horses play some kind of role in this new world (since they filled the same role that cars did for centuries)?

    Ok now I think that it's because you're just being disingenuous. Surely it's not stupidity?

    A bland insistence that everyone can just cycle while ripping up roads doesn't fill me with confidence. Where all the ideas and creative solutions for this 'sustainable future'...? crickets

    Nobody is ripping up roads nor has anyone said that everyone must cycle. The sustainable future is about creating sustainable alternatives which includes giving people the choice to make the decision to be able to safely cycle somewhere (instead of using a car). However, there is a parallel discussion regarding limiting the number of vehicles allowed enter large urban areas simply to remove congestion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,767 ✭✭✭Pinch Flat


    We are a horrendously car dependent country. People can't see beyond the 4 wheels and it's like a comfort blanket for a lot. I cycle to work - someone working with me travels a similar distance and pays €5,000 per annum to park. Thats on top of fuel at neigh on €2 / litre, tax insurance and running costs of a car. Makes no sense. Literally a dart stop outside their door at home and one at our work - I suggested the dart and was laughed at.

    Lucan near me has a campaign to remove a few parking spaces from the village. The village is literally dominated by cars in all approaches. There's war over it - its going to cost jjobs apparently. Its kind of weird that when you make places more accessible for walking and cycling that villages trive but yet there resistance against it. People only worry about their own convenience and 4 wheels and little else.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,792 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    You don’t control the thread. Or what direction the discussion or contributions are to be made…during discourse…Thanks :)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,963 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Lucan will become a much better place if they build the Outer Ring connecting the N3 and the N4. The roads around Lucan just aren't good enough for being as near as it is to Dublin. Lucan is used as a toll dodge of the M50 all the time, because its €6 per day to commute there and back via it.


    The reason the outer ring hasn't been built near Lucan is due to vested interests and the clause in the M50 toll contract that a competing road would never be built.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,537 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The M50 toll contract is ancient history. That bridge will never be built as a general traffic bridge regardless



  • Registered Users Posts: 269 ✭✭JayPS 2288


    I’m not controlling the thread 🤡

    I just don’t like people misquoting me, putting words in my mouth or disagreeing with points I literally did not make.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,792 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Problem with Malahide is on the outskirts planning permission being given in every field for residential property and developers to go mad, Malahide is chaos because of ‘planning’ not because of cars, piss poor ‘planning’… Malahide was always a sleepy little village…I’ve family there for xx years…so I’m well acquainted with its layout and machinations of life there…older property owners and landowners are selling off getting mad money.... Seamount Rise being a perfect example..

    Malahide was always a sleepy village, now it’s a town…

    you’d need a car there because simply public transport links are not all that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 269 ✭✭JayPS 2288


    Ehh you have regular buses into town, into Swords, the DART every 15 minutes and the diesel train every hour or so.


    What more could you possibly want?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,792 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    So everybody just wants to get to town or swords ? Ehhhhh right…

    my cousin goes to visit me , according to google, driving is 27 minutes.

    public transport, averages 1 hr 15 minutes.

    all according to google.



  • Registered Users Posts: 269 ✭✭JayPS 2288


    The DART serves several intermittent stations between and all the way to Bray. The diesel train can bring you to Dundalk (and sometimes Newry) and everywhere in between, with connections emanating from each of those places.

    Tell me, what level would public transport have to be in order to reduce reliance on cars? Because certain parts of Dublin have it pretty damn good.



  • Registered Users Posts: 269 ✭✭JayPS 2288




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,792 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    I’m nowhere near a dart or train station. Nearest train station is 6 kilometres away, a 15 minute drive currently off peak and no direct buses. Dart 5.6 kilometres away, off peak, no direct buses. All according to google and Google maps.



  • Registered Users Posts: 269 ✭✭JayPS 2288


    So you don’t live in Malahide then?

    Then fair enough I’ll have to good grace to step back a bit.

    I still stand by the assertion that cars should be parked on the outskirts or designated council or private facilities and leave the main roads free of parking.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,792 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Read the thread properly, thanks. Then you won’t have to ask questions.

    cant limit the use of cars without proper public transport provisions.. given that’s a ways off , cars will remain a cornerstone of navigating people from A to B.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 269 ✭✭JayPS 2288


    Easy tiger 🐅 calm down and take it easy. No one wants to take your car away ☺️ We just don’t want your private property blocking up public thoroughfares.

    Have a lovely weekend 😊😊😊



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,287 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    The reason the outer ring hasn't been built near Lucan is due to vested interests and the clause in the M50 toll contract that a competing road would never be built.

    The only "vested interest" that I'm aware of is the one where people don't want a dual carriageway going across & through St. Catherine's Park, which I completely agree with.



  • Registered Users Posts: 269 ✭✭JayPS 2288


    Only today I was out walking with my parents and my aunt and uncle. We had to cross the road at a point where the footpath suddenly ends on both sides and there are no cross button crossings whatsoever.

    The cars speed like a bat out of hell on this stretch, on their own they’d never get across.

    I had to assert my position and step out when the car was 100 metres down the road. Stood in the middle of the road and guided them out.

    They deliberately sped up, jumped on the horn and swerved around us. My dad was standing there nearly genuflecting and “apologising”, my dad told me I was wrong, the car was on the road and he had right of way and we should have waited.

    No amount of logic would change his mind. The road is for cars, pedestrians have to know their place, it didn’t matter that they were slow and more inform, the car was king.

    When attitudes like that persist and pedestrians themselves think they have to submit to the mighty car we will never tip the balance.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,558 ✭✭✭Ardillaun


    SUVs are OK for outback Canada but they’re too big for Irish roads.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,558 ✭✭✭Ardillaun




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,436 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,564 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Most of what are termed SUVs here wouldn't be much use to you in "outback" anywhere.

    What we call SUVs are mostly slightly higher 2wd vehicles which are typically about the same length and width as the hatchbacks they are based on.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,872 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    Yeah, my plug in "SUV" is smaller than our Volvo V70.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,368 ✭✭✭bladespin


    Really depends on what you term SUV, a hummer or a duster, our current tax system is pretty prohibitive against the 'proper' SUV, even our 4x4s are particularly tame in size and emissions compared to the US and Canadian jobbers.

    MasteryDarts Ireland - Master your game!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭forestgirl




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 691 ✭✭✭galvo_clare


    I think you mean Shannon, which was built up around the airport.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 295 ✭✭tomfoolery60



    They are a good deal taller even if not much wider or longer, making them more dangerous/lethal to pedestrians (especially children). They are also heavier, when combined with the height (less aerodynamic) this makes them less fuel efficient.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 947 ✭✭✭Burt Renaults


    That's a predictable and stupid post. You can dislike obnoxious, over-sized cars and the negative effect they have on public spaces, and the harm they cause to vulnerable road users, without having a chip on your shoulder.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,368 ✭✭✭bladespin


    Really - you should tell that to mine, I'm getting better MPG (measured) from it that the Passat I had before it, height difference is a matter of a few inches, not a great deal IMO, we're not talking 4x4 here, the likes of the Qashqai's not much taller than a saloon.

    MasteryDarts Ireland - Master your game!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,110 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    "Tax take from motorists soars to over €5.4bn – McGrath

    27 February 2017"

    That's 8.2% of the non motorist based revenue in that year. And given it's generally rising continually, it's probably closer to 10% of government revenue currently.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,946 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,368 ✭✭✭bladespin


    But they're not really, think that's the problem here, the motorist isn't the massive polluter here that they're being made out to be, there are far bigger contributors both at home and especially abroad but that doesn't fit the narrative.

    MasteryDarts Ireland - Master your game!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,110 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    People going to and from work, taking kids to school, delivering goods to shops for moron greenies to buy. Anything beyond a stone age hunter gatherer existence involves altering the environment, and even then, hunter gatherers are now thought to have radically altered large areas of land through the use of fire.

    Let me guess, you think everyone should drive an EV as they are all powered by CO2 free energy. As of a minute ago:

    That's 1.87% of electricity being generated from wind, so your non polluting EV is being powered by fossil fuels.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,368 ✭✭✭bladespin


    Absolutely, a designed housing shortage forcing people to commute further and further every year, public transport that isn't fit for purpose outside the cities combined with fashion politicing got us here, not the motorist - not even the guy in the V8 Range Rover the greenies have such a horn for.

    MasteryDarts Ireland - Master your game!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,537 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    There are hundreds of thousands of people who live within commutable distances of work, walkable/cyclable distances of schools and so on and yet drive.

    There are tens of thousands of people who own SUV or Crossover vehicles and never use them for their alleged purpose.

    The people who need to be encouraged (carrot - pricing, capacity, service levels etc) and maybe eventually forced (congestion charges - I'm against ULEZ setups as they only cause new cars to be bought) are those in those categories, not those that live beyond services. But most of those that live fully beyond services are there by choice - one off builds.


    The "but but but but but" defences against any changes always come from those who are not the random group of people they have pulled in as a human shield. Not disabled, not elderly, not infirm, not living in an unserved area (by anything but their own choice), not anything but a driver that wants to keep driving unrestricted despite that not being sustainable - for physical space reasons if nothing else.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,436 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,872 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    Where is that graph from?

    Does it mean we need to build more wind turbines?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,537 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Eirgrid dashboard. Its not very windy right now (or last night when that was posted) so more onshore turbines won't do bugger all for that figure.

    Offshore wind, solar (it is quite sunny right now), micro hydro, pumped storage, hydrogen cycling (electrolyse when there's excess wind and use when there isn't) are what's needed to reduce gas usage for days when its calm on land.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,872 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    Ah, cool. Thanks for the link. I'll have to look at it when the wind is honking in the winter when we need more power!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,537 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Peak wind generation was 4.5GW - and there were almost certainly turbines braked to stop damage or because the grid couldn't actually export any more power at the time.

    Right this instant its 19MW, or 1/236th of peak. That's the variation possible.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,872 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    Right, that's really interesting. Obviously many more turbines needed and some way of storing the power.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,163 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    some way of storing the power.

    this is key; we could have all the wind turbines in the world, but on a calm day the entire power generation for the country has to come from non-wind sources, which means we need generating power which in one sense makes the wind redundant.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,110 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Oh cool, wait till the wind is honking in winter:

    20-1-22

    One of the basic underlying reasons for why gas and energy prices have been so high this year is because multiple countries in Europe 'thought' the wind would be honking this winter, and becuase lots of additional wind generation had come on stream ealier in the year, they thought the extra capacity and piles of expected wind meant they didn't need to buy and stockpile that villified gas stuff during the summer, when prices are cheaper, like they normally would. Then the wind didn't show up and those whirly things were doing a whole lot of nothing for considerable periods this winter - all over Europe - so suddenly everyone needed a lot of gas quick as they didn't have it stockpiled.

    All made worse by the Germans who appear to have been bribed by Gazprom who funded the anti-nuclear movement which lead to that daft git Merkel shutting down perfectly good nuclear power stations, meaning those uber energy hogs had their greedy snouts buried in the gas market even more than usual.

    The French also had an unfortunate discovery of some weld repairs needed to several of their nukes - after 20-30 years of near continous use - bit like my cars shock absorbers, and had to offline those, meaning more gas needed there too.

    Not helped by the Russian Gazprom deliberately running down it's european gas storage so they could enact their Nazi driven invasion of Ukraine.

    An absolute perfect storm of stupidity, skulduggery, evil and unfortunate circumstance.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,110 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    So you thought your habit of thinking less should be generalised.

    You just stick to your limited cerebral activity and I'll stick to driving when I need to.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,436 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    If people only drove when they needed to, we'd be in a much better position. Look at the Census data showing the high number of short journeys, less than 4km, that are driven, when they could be easily walked or cycled.



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