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Russia - threadbanned users in OP

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,916 ✭✭✭eire4


    Really the German government have been shameful in their response to Russia's invasion of Ukraine right the way through. It seems even any of the help they have given is only reluctantly given and only because everyone else is chipping in so they have to do something. Very disappointing to put it mildly.





  • Can't see this playing well with the German population. Scholz won't last long.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,919 ✭✭✭GM228



    There is no conflict between our Constitution and Ireland participating in EU Battlegroup's.

    All our Constitution states is that Ireland will not adopt a decision on the establishment of a common defence pursuant to Article 42 TFEU if that decision includes Ireland as part of the common defence, to date the European Council hasn't even taken a decision yet on a common defence under Article 42.

    These EU Battlegroup's are not common defence groups pursuant to Article 42 (3) of the TFEU, though they are under the remit of the EUs CSDP which has a basis in Articles 36 and 41 through 46 of the TFEU. These "Battlegroup's" are essentially peace keeping groups (similar to UN missions) or Crisis Management Operations known as the Petersberg Tasks under the Petersberg Declaration, the various Battlegroups are formed by agreement of the individual nations involved in each group rather than by any decision at EU level. Any actual call to arms with one of these Battlegroup's still requires a UN mandate under the triple lock system.


    There's no question of "likely" about it, we absolutely would require a referendum to accept any EU decision on a common defence which includes Ireland. A Referendum is required for any Constitutional change or for any acceptance of major EU treaties.

    The amendment to the Constitution was proposed on foot of the Seville Declarations by Ireland and the EU to ensure the Nice Treaty Referendum passed the second time round as there was a fear that the common defence would force us out of our neutrality - so yes it was essentially to keep the people happy and get the Nice Treaty passed, it should be noted that whilst the Seville Declaration strictly speaking were not legally binding on the EU, they finally rectified that and gave legal status to their declarations when they Annexed the Protocol on the concerns of the Irish people on the Treaty of Lisbon onto the Lisbon Treaty making it legally binding on all EU member states.


    Legally speaking there is no Referendum required as it is purely a matter for Government, however, it is widely accepted by that any such change in our neutrality policy will be a choice of the people via Referendum.


    It didn't restrict the UK joining NATO because the UK didn't join NATO, rather it founded NATO (along with 11 other states).

    But, yes partition is the reason why Ireland refused to join NATO, see the comments from the then Minister for External Affairs Seán MacBride in 1949 in the Dáil when discussing the formation of NATO (or the Atlantic Pact as it was called when being negotiated):-

    As I explained in the course of these exchanges, Ireland, as an essentially democratic and freedom-loving country, is anxious to play her full part in protecting and preserving Christian civilisation and the democratic way of life. With the general aim of the proposed Atlantic Pact in this regard, therefore, we are in agreement. In the matter of military measures, however, we are faced with an insuperable difficulty, from the strategic and political points of view, by reason of the fact that six of our north-eastern counties are occupied by British forces against the will of the overwhelming majority of the Irish people. Partition is naturally and bitterly resented by the people of this country as a violation of Ireland's territorial integrity and as a denial in her case of the elementary democratic right of national selfdetermination. As long as Partition lasts, any military alliance or commitment involving joint military action with the State responsible for Partition must be quite out of the question so far as Ireland is concerned. Any such commitment, if undertaken, would involve the prospect of civil conflict in this country in the event of a crisis.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭pcardin


    like in every bad life situation when you rely on friends and then you see who really is a friend and who is not. At least we all know now. For the future record.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,919 ✭✭✭GM228





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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,039 ✭✭✭jackboy


    we always knew. Remember when they shafted us and Greece after the last economic crash. They will always put their economy first, which means normalising relations with Russia as soon as possible.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,395 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Germany is turning out to be a Russian stooge - be replacing our car soon enough and bye, bye VW.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,100 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Z-tank being taken out and the ammunition cooking off.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 665 ✭✭✭goldenmick


    @Dohnjoe -  ....I suspect Russia will become the new North Korea over the years, an economic vassal of China.


    I can't see that happening whilst Russia still retains a massive nuclear arsenal. I really don't envisage Russia under Putin - or any other leader for that matter - being beholden as an "economic vassal" of China.

    They've (Russia) already used veiled nuclear threats towards one and all, warning against intervening in Ukraine. And I believe if the Russian economic situation were to deteriorate to drastic levels, partly because of sanctions and partly due to loss of trade and manufacturing, then the West would be threatened by Russia once again - and I wouldn't put it past Putin to actually follow through on his threats if the alternative was Russia going under. Putin will, in effect, blackmail the West into lifting sanctions and commencing trade with Russia again. He knows he has us by the balls, in a vice like grip, for as long as he holds the keys to nuclear warheads. Even when this war is over, what would then be a complete tragedy is that Putin the coward would probably use a low yield nuke on poor old Ukraine as a warning to everyone else, if he further doesn't get his own way.

    I don't believe there's any love lost between Russia and China. It was always going to be a temporary marriage of convenience in the way of posturing to show strength against democratic nations. Putin knows that if China sees Russia as weak then it's upping the chances of China making a move on Vladivostock and other disputed Russian territories. And China will now be extremely wary of Russia having seen the way they've been humiliated on the world stage. They'd pick each others pockets and steal the snot from each others handkerchiefs if they could. Shrewd Xi may well try to take advantage of Russia's situation but I don't see Putin letting Russia become a North Korea clone any time soon.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,067 ✭✭✭✭Danzy



    Germany is the only real significant ally Putin has outside of China and India and Which the Russians depend on. It's a leg in that tripod.


    If Hungary disappeared tomorrow, Putin or the world wouldn't notice the brown nosing of Orban was gone.


    There is a significant niche in Germany very vocal about the contempt for democracy in Europe now emanating from Berlin.


    Germany must decide if it backs democracy in Europe or does not.


    Is it worth an inconvenience, we won't pretend that Ukrainian lives will come into it.


    It will take 20 years to change the belief now in Eastern Europe that Germany is a hostile and cold force that does not view their lives as having worth.


    Germany must decide how it calculates the value of a European Democratic States existence.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,441 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    I think they got way too close to Putin over the last 20 years and probably thought they could tame him. It's coming back to bite them now, they seem seriously compromised through having been so close to Russia.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,100 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    "Stolen in Ukraine American combines were found in Kadyrov.

    Here is the real goal of the Kadyrovites' participation in the war - the robbery of someone else's. Occupiers in Zaporizhzhya region stole agricultural machinery John Deere. Later, the looted property "splashed" on an agricultural company associated with the head of Chechnya Ramzan Kadyrov.

    One of the most notorious looting crimes took place in Melitopol – from the exhibition area of Agrotek-Invest, the official dealer of agricultural machinery manufacturer John Deere (USA) in Ukraine, kadyrovtsi stole three new combines, a tractor, three seeders with a total value of 1.5 million euros, as well as 20 tons of branded lubricants.

    The company managed to calculate where the Russians took the stolen equipment. Thanks to the systems installed on the equipment, experts have established that the equipment is currently in Chechnya, in the village of Zakan-Yurt near Grozny." Operational APU



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭Hobgoblin11


    The Pentagon: We will provide Ukraine with 18 artillery systems soon


    Dundalk, Co. Louth



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,247 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Germany told the Ukrainians straight up they believed defeat was inevitable at the start of the war.

    They clearly still do. That's just the reality of how Germany sees it and why they are reluctant.

    Time will tell whose right.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,919 ✭✭✭ronivek


    Terribly disappointed in Germany but I wasn't really expecting much new from them either.

    I do think people need to bear in mind that the two biggest EU armies have been largely silent also: France and Italy. Although to be fair to Italy they don't actually spend as much as Germany or France in an average year.

    Macron hasn't even spoken to Putin since Bucha; and clearly is too busy with his election to organise any additional military aid for Ukraine. Not sure why he and France seem to be escaping much of the ire aimed at Scholz and Germany. I'm pretty sure France has only sent the minimum amounts as agreed via the EU by all member states so... yeah.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,337 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    We shafted ourselves but the further it recedes I suppose the easier it is to forget that and tell a good story where we were done down by the foreigners since the full truth of what happened then doesn't paint a very nice picture at all.

    ANYway, there is no way that Germany will be "normalising" relations with Russia/Putin any time soon. Will need AfD to be the German government perhaps or hell to freeze over. Do people really believe these things they post?

    Despite the constant criticism, Germany has done more for Ukraine than we have and the somewhat vaccilating Irish approach has the full throated support of the public according to opinion polls. Yah, we want to help Ukraine but we don't want to dirty our own hands, and we don't want to put our own head above the EU parapet early on any given issue where the Russians might spot it and take a pot shot! Perfectly understandable.

    So its blackly funny to watch Irish people (assuming here...given its an Irish site) absolutely laying into the Germans...Attend to the beam in our own eye first.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,067 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    They accelerated their relationship with him after he annexed Crimea, took part of the Donbass and bombed hospitals etc, shot down a civilian jumbo jet.


    He was awarded Nordstream 2 and Germany went to wind down any independence it had energy wise.


    They didn't give a hoot, Wandel durch Handel line is just a way of providing cover. Same as one of the largest arms sellers in the world is crying never again, no more war but it is funding cremation of civilians in Ukraine and fighting sanctions at every step.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,449 ✭✭✭nigeldaniel


    Germany's problem is a tricky one. If their economy were to suffer badly they would have their own right-wing extremist to deal with. It's a case of better the devil you know. I think there are plenty of Germanys and German politicians that will continue to support Ukraine in every way they can and covertly. It's a tight rope they have to walk. Ireland are not much better in many regards. We could empty out all that heavy gear in the Curragh camp and send it on but we won't. We could shut down the Russian embassy but we won't. Another tightrope there. A lot of Irish passport holders living in Russia and Russia friendly countries could end up being used as pawns by the Russians. Politics is a strange business. Not too far off a James Bond movie.

    Dan.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,919 ✭✭✭ronivek


    Also I didn't see this posted yet but rumours abound that the UK is adding another new system to its support: the Stormer.

    They're basically just a vehicle for launching LMM and Starstreak missiles; but it gives the operator some protection and also the ability to potentially engage multiple air targets in quick succession.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,393 ✭✭✭ZX7R





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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,039 ✭✭✭jackboy


    We have been clear with Ukraine from the start about what support we were willing to give. Germany has been the opposite of clear.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,161 ✭✭✭wassie


    I think we will start to see a concerted campaign putting out the message that if you buy German goods right now you are effectively funding Putin’s war.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Canada and the UK sending heavy artillery to add to what the Americans are deploying this week ,and Romania is changing it's laws to allow weapons to be sent to ukraine




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,337 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    Nope they were clear at the "start" (pre invasion, while Putin was making threats and gathering his forces).

    They had same position as us now really in terms of their support (money, aid excluding weapons) but they changed after Russia invaded.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,161 ✭✭✭wassie


    We could shut down the Russian embassy but we won't. Another tightrope there. A lot of Irish passport holders living in Russia and Russia friendly countries could end up being used as pawns by the Russians.

    If you closed down the Russian embassy here, they would do the same there. You would be throwing Irish passport holders living in Russia to the wolves.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    @GM228 thanks for finding the information much appreciated ,



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,467 ✭✭✭zv2


    Correction; that 'Mariupol' explosion seems to have been a warehouse explosion in Balaklei in 2017. I wish people would stop faking so much.

    It looks like history is starting up again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,575 ✭✭✭rogber


    This is the reality. They aren't some evil secret Putin supporters the way they're being portrayed now here. They naively thought they could tame Putin by economic means and Steinmeier, one of the architects of that approach, has admitted they made big mistakes and got it wrong.

    They can't just decouple their economy and energy supplies from Russia overnight. Their military is feeble and they also have an extremely complicated history which involved trying to enslave Russia less than a century ago and is also making them reluctant to be militarily involved. The same reason they never criticise Israel.

    On the other hand, they are donating huge amounts of humanitarian aid and all refugees are entitled to financial aid from the state and accomodation for at least the next few months,free language classes to help integrate etc.

    Yes, they can and should do more, but it's not as black and white as many here claim.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,067 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Germany would have to deal with a right wing extremist if things get bad you say.


    The old German line of "you won't like it when we get angry".


    No one buys it any more.


    No doubt Germany will take a hit but it will not be a standout recession by any means.


    That it has any affect on growth at all is enough.


    This right wing extremist you fear would have to be pretty bad to match the blood on Merkel and ScholZ's hands.


    This is Germany today.

    https://m.independent.ie/world-news/europe/death-toll-in-mariupol-could-top-20000-says-mayor-as-corpses-carpeting-streets-41544281.html



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling




This discussion has been closed.
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