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30 year old arts graduate struggling to get by

  • 17-04-2022 8:39pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 105 ✭✭johnboy92


    Hi guys,

    Im posting because I need help. I cant afford to buy a house and this makes me feel subhuman in this country. Im from and live in Dublin.

    I turn 30 this year. I finished school in 2010 and the height of the recession, the career guidance in school (middle class south Dublin), was fully based on going to UCD or Trinity. No other options existed. I never heard about STEM, never about trades, never about anything but the need to especially not attend IT Tallaght.

    So I did a UCD arts degree in Sociology and Political Science after gaining 450 points in my leaving cert, I graduated in 2014, and did a post graduate diploma in Public Relations. Since then I have been unable to get a job earning over 30,000. I spent 4 years in a media agency working as a client services manager. I moved into tourism marketing after this and lost that role due to covid. For the last year I am working for facebook on the helpdesk for advertising clients.

    I have literally sent out hundreds of CVs for higher wages and cannot get anything. People here talk about high paying jobs as if everyone can get one if they work hard enough. Thats not true, even my manager in work is living in a house share.

    I have applied for a visa to go to Canada, just to get away from the shame I feel in my inability to live outside a house share (even on HAP) or to buy a home. Ive never been unemployed, I work damn hard and take every bit of overtime going, but I will never be able to buy a house on my income being single in Dublin.

    I want no hand outs, my political instincts are conservative (hate long term welfare, dislike how having a child is seen as a life choice) I just want a normal standard of living with a basic car, a secure home and enough disposable income to have a pint on a Saturday night. Why does that seem out of my reach?

    How do I not feel inferior for my wages and being a renter?

    Post edited by Beasty on


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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,986 ✭✭✭Buddy Bubs


    Look into a postgraduate program in an area in demand that you like. IT and finance are the big 2 earners, but depends on what you are like with these disciplines.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,928 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    The reality is that you'll probably have to retrain in something where there's greater demand for those skills and thus higher earning potential.

    However, even with that it's no guarantee at the moment as there's simply not enough housing (in the areas people want it) to meet the demand, and even then individuals AND couples are being outbid on housing by private equity/investment firms and local councils who are in turn renting them back out to (social) tenants.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,644 ✭✭✭Qrt


    Have a look on springboard and see if there's anything you'd be interested in.



  • Registered Users Posts: 105 ✭✭johnboy92


    I already have a post grad. I have looked into IT (though Maths was my only ordinary level in school) and I cannot do a post grad in it without having to do access courses and a degree. I also think this IT boom is causing division as most people are no longer gaining from economic growth outside niche areas and most of those earning big are coming from over seas, and in turn pricing locals out of the rental market



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,205 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Two choices after Arts - Teacher or McDonalds. No?



    McDonalds are actually supposed to be decent enough payers



    As for not going to Tallaght for college, sure you went to UCD anyway so it much of a muchness. Might have picked up a few more tips on making money from crime or even just practical things like how to hotwire a car out in Tallaght though



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  • Registered Users Posts: 261 ✭✭BingCrosbee


    You sound a decent lad. There are a lot of people in your predicament and it’s not nice. If you had a partner to fight life together things might seem so bad. Best of luck to you. All you need is a break.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,986 ✭✭✭Buddy Bubs


    Yes, you'd be correct there with the high earners distorting the rental market, things are far different than they used to be. I'm glad I am 10 years older than you. The last recession and housing crash allowed me to buy a house on my own in 2010 that I would have been crippled on in mortgage payments at its 2008 price. Lucky timing I guess. But hopefully access to housing improves soon.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,082 ✭✭✭afatbollix


    I left the country in 2010, Best thing I did. It's shite coming back to see family as it would be great to just be down the road but my career is going great for someone who didn't do great at the leaving! Ireland is the size of a small city in the UK/USA.


    I also echo not being told about learning a trade, My brother left school at 16 and became an apprentice as a farrier and could be flat out 7 days a week with the amount of work he can get! If I left school again tomorrow I would have trained as an electrician. You are never too late to change career. If you fancy a trade loads of places would rather a 30-year-old than a 20-year-old who is out every weekend! The pay might be crap for the first year or two but then you will be on good money!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,102 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Are there any jobs you could work from home and move to live to a much cheaper place than Dublin?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,360 ✭✭✭SuperBowserWorld


    Do some good free online programming course in Java or Python and see how you get on.

    And read a beginner's book or two on the subject.

    Spend a good few days/weeks on this.

    Don't give up.

    If you enjoy it then you are suitable to kick start a programming career.

    You don't need honours maths, just an enjoyment and passion for programming. And time.

    Even if not, there are other non programming careers in IT, but I can't comment on those.



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  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Stop worrying about buying a house for a start OP, and start living your life.

    Have you ever lived overseas? It's time to go, see the world, travel, do anything to keep you going when you're there. Don't worry about houses and careers, just enjoy it while you're young enough with no responsibilities.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,205 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    There are actually subsidised online part-time Masters under Skillnet if people want to change to, or get trained up in, more "modern" areas



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Retraining is definitely what I'd recommend. I come from an arts background and now work in software. Obviously you need to pursue something you have somewhat of an interest in though. I know loads of people who moved field in their thirties and later, went well for them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 105 ✭✭johnboy92


    Thanks, I wish I could do this and its my plan at least to go on the 2 year visa for Canada. But it seems that everything in Ireland is about owning a home and it feels like behind an outsider when you don't. Like if renting was not seen as some kind of plague for victims and the unclean I don't think I would have all this anxiety, and I also don't think the housing crisis would be seen as such. We need to fix the rental market in this country and most importantly the attitudes towards renting instead of pushing people in more and more isolated areas to buy a small box.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,144 ✭✭✭TheIrishGrover


    You'll probably have to retrain. Something a bit more.... focused. I would imagine that, unless you own the company, working behind the scenes in media is always going to be relatively poorly paid. This is probably a HUGE (and inaccurate) generalisation but it seems to be a young-person's job and heavily leaning towards younger women (Mid-late 20s) unless, as said, you own the company. I apologise if this is an offensive generalisation (It was not meant to cause offense). Seems to be more about the "glamour" and high-visibility of such a job. Have you any interest in more technical fields? Maybe a technical field such as computer networking or security. It's never too late to retrain (I went back to college at 38 after losing a job I'd had for 13 years).

    You should also cut yourself a bit of a break too. You have mentioned shame etc. You are being WAY too hard on yourself. You are working hard, doing what you can. It's not your fault that property prices have sky-rocketed. It's not your fault that your job is low-paying. have a look at Springboard courses (You can do some of them while being employed).

    Is there another field that interests you?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 895 ✭✭✭mondeoman72


    I'm 50. I went to IT Tallaght at 46. Mature student with nothing. Wiped out in recession.

    I'm now on decent money in a world famous company. A new world don't give up.

    Do something relevant to real world. I know nothing about arts but what does that train you for? Pm if you wish



  • Registered Users Posts: 105 ✭✭johnboy92


    So I went into media because I wanted to be a journalist, I used to freelance while in college but knew I could never make a job of it, so PR and marketing seems the best alternative. And yes you are correct about the media. Entry level jobs are unpaid, and then its pretty much 30,000 and under until you become a high level communications manager and jump to 100k. In betweens just don't exist. As well its not easily transferable. I was a client manager for civil service and political clients since that is where I specialised.

    To be honest on tech jobs, Ive never had any interest in science or technology or computers or really anything with numbers. My interests and skills have always been around literature, politics and writing. I'm looking at tech because thats the prevailing winds but like not everyone can be a software developer. What are the rest of us supposed to do?

    If it is the case that only tech jobs are going to pay expect to see a massive tension in society between insiders and outsiders, which is starting already.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Never mind the housing market! Who gives a crap?!

    Get that visa and really enjoy it, so as much travel as you can while there, and afterwards, do more travel to other places. There is way more to life then owning a house and being tied down for 30ish years by debt.

    See the world, broaden your horizons, enjoy life!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,202 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    I cant afford to buy a house and this makes me feel subhuman in this country.

    -

    I want no hand outs, my political instincts are conservative (hate long term welfare, dislike how having a child is seen as a life choice) I just want a normal standard of living with a basic car, a secure home and enough disposable income to have a pint on a Saturday night. Why does that seem out of my reach?

    How do I not feel inferior for my wages and being a renter?


    Your issue isn’t that you can’t afford to buy property, or that you can’t afford a car, or that you made some education and career choices which didn’t turn out to lead to the opportunities you’d envisioned for yourself.

    Your fundamental issue is that you can’t afford your political views, which puts you in the same category as the people you yourself see as subhuman.

    I don’t have any sort of advice at all, but if your political instincts are conservative, you’ll probably do alright for yourself eventually, once you get over thinking of people in the same position as yourself as subhuman.



  • Registered Users Posts: 105 ✭✭johnboy92


    I think you might be right. I didn't grow up poor and had the attitude that people are poor due to not working. Now Im struggling and I guess I see its not an individual's fault when they work 40 hour weeks and struggle to pay the bills.

    But like most people in Ireland I grew up in a owner occupied home and didn't know people from council or rented housing. So it seems like I have taken a step backwards and f****d up by being in that position. A position I was always ironically told I would be in if I didn't get a good leaving cert and go to college



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,360 ✭✭✭SuperBowserWorld


    People make out IT to be some magical mysterious beast.

    It's not.

    And by just teaching yourself programming you can figure out if you have a passion for it or not and if you can sustain yourself in the field, and can learn new things yourself.

    No dependencies, loads of time, 30 ...

    Go go go !



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,205 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    They have more than programming and IT. They have finance/business etc. And some of the IT stuff is aimed more towards Business Analysts or Project Managers etc. Those people are not programming (or often understanding what they are managing)


    Or just go and be a teacher. Surely they are on more than the OPs 30k a year and have short fixed hours every day and loads of holidays (that aren't holidays but are holidays depending on what a teacher is arguing at the time)



  • Registered Users Posts: 105 ✭✭johnboy92


    But why is the answer always "learn to code", what happened to normal office jobs paying decent salaries



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Does your job in general pay the type of wage you need to buy a house where you want to live? If it doesn’t, either you do something about getting a job that does, or you look for a cheaper place to live.

    Op, you are responsible for your choice of career, and no one owes you a house in Dublin. So make your mind up, either stick, emigrate, change career or look outside Dublin.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,205 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    You could always train up to be a cooper OP. Those fellas used to be well paid as well. Get yourself a job in Guinnesses and be set for life



  • Registered Users Posts: 105 ✭✭johnboy92


    So will the economy in the future basically be finance, solicitors, IT people and masses of people on low pay servicing them?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,436 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Keep an eye out for comms roles in public bodies. Most would be on publicjobs.ie though some bodies recruit directly themselves.

    You’ll find good opportunities for development and additional qualifications.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,205 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    I'm now on decent money in a world famous company. A new world don't give up.

    Fair play. I suppose there are niches for everything. That said, you are lucky in some ways because OnlyFans probably didn't even exist when you started



  • Registered Users Posts: 105 ✭✭johnboy92


    I turned down a comms job in the civil service. Starting salary is 26k, goes up to 40k after 10 years. Not enough to buy a house with and by then Id be 40 and it would be nearly too late.

    I got offered to go for the role because I used to do media analysis for all civil service accounts and was on first name terms with all the comms managers



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,205 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    It's up to you what you want to do. Money isn't the be all and end all. You have choices.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,360 ✭✭✭SuperBowserWorld


    I'm only saying programming as that's my experience.

    Once upon a time I'd programme for free. Getting someone to pay me for it was unreal.

    Now, as I'm much older, and have family and life to deal with, the whole career aspect of it has become a REAL slog.

    But I still love getting the chance to do some uninterrupted programming. It's magical.

    You need to discover this yourself and not have some, possibly crap tutor/teacher turn you off for life.

    I don't think there are normal office jobs anymore that pay well, they are all being automated. Maybe management or ...

    I only suggested learn to code to see if you like it. If you do, then it's a great career option.

    Now, the way things are going in Dublin, it'll still be hard to buy anyway, especially if you are single.

    Or maybe there will be a crash ..

    But with a programming job, you can work anywhere in Ireland or abroad.

    It's definitely getting more competitive, but everything is getting automated and there is endless work to be done.

    Some of it is absolute garbage, but if can still pay very well.



  • Registered Users Posts: 105 ✭✭johnboy92


    Its not about money. Like I can afford a holiday every year and going for drinks etc. Its all about property. Irish people view renters as lower class and dont regard you as equal without home ownership. So its about needing to buy a home in Dublin



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,205 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Civil service. Handy jobs. Secure. Great pension. And good support for training if you want to train up into something useful



  • Registered Users Posts: 105 ✭✭johnboy92


    A civil service wage wont buy a home in Dublin unless you have 20 years experience to get to 60k plus. And by then Id be too old for a mortgage



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,205 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    You already said you went to UCD. And to do Arts no less.

    Why the sudden concern now for people looking down on you as lower class? Where was that concern when you were filling out your CAO? What has changed in the meantime?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 105 ✭✭johnboy92


    Going to UCD to do Arts is as middle class as it comes. Most people in my course went to Blackrock College. I never expected to be unable to buy a home on it. I knew I wouldnt be rich but I thought anyone in work could buy a house in areas like Crumlin or Tallaght, because when I was growing up that was true



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,205 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    I'd imagine you wouldn't have to stay on the same ladder the whole time



  • Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It's weird though OP, the STEM subjects are present and well-known in TCD and UCD so it's a bit weird that you thought you had to do arts. Around that time (started then myself) the STEM courses did go up a bit but they were still lower than the Arts subjects.

    Nothing wrong with an Arts degree but the point isn't to train you in a particular field. Plenty of IT grads (and the people hiring them) will tell you how much learning is done on the job. Trouble is for Arts that isn't really the case. Some people may be able to negotiate a pay bump for a qualification but with an Arts degree you pretty much have to build from scratch. With IT at least there's a technical base and things tend to build logically and a clear path is there.



  • Posts: 5,121 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Well what are the rest of your peers doing?



  • Registered Users Posts: 105 ✭✭johnboy92


    I didnt even do a science subject in my leaving cert. The idea of jobs in STEM never came up in school etc. I did arts because I liked writing and had an interest in politics.



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  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    If your whole existence is based on you buying a house, it seems pretty sad.

    Do whatever you enjoy doing.I don't understand why you care about having a mortgage so much? Just because the job started at 26k, there can be a lot of opportunities you find once you start working somewhere.

    Nothing wrong with a first job paying 26K.



  • Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    There were very few of them at the end of the day. And they required little skill compared to now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 105 ✭✭johnboy92


    Living at home or in house shares and working in admin jobs. Or in some cases the richer ones are living in houses their folks used to rent out.



  • Registered Users Posts: 105 ✭✭johnboy92


    My siblings who are 10 and 15 years older then me sat me down in 2017 and told me I HAD to buy a starter home soon. They told me renting is a choice.



  • Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Well quit blaming school when you had no interest in those subjects.

    For 90%+ of people trying to be normal you need to be able to show progression. I did a degree, did a diploma, worked at a company for 3 years, got some certs, new company for 18 months, I have a "career". If you don't start specific (kind of the point of arts degrees) then you need to get specific to show a track record.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,205 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Given you are an ex-UCD self-professed member of the "middle class" whose greatest ambition and aspiration in life is to live in Crumlin or Tallaght, and further given you have studied politics, do you think you might be able to convince the plebs that you are a working class hero and that they should vote you into a cushy number? Join one of the Judean People's front groups in your locality and then once you have your feet under the table, become a splitter and set up your own rival group. Just shout noisily about anything and everything the plebs might swallow.

    Worked for your man Paul Murphy



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I'm Irish and I don't view renters as lower class. I think this is about your attitude. Get over it. I know plenty of Judges in Dublin whose kids are living in ex council houses in crumlin and cabra.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,144 ✭✭✭TheIrishGrover


    Again, as others have said, this attitude must change. This "us and them" mentality is actually some of your problem. One doesn't "settle" for a tech job simply to make money. They will get only so far if they think the job/qualification is beneath them.

    I for one DID grow up in a council estate (Not owner-occupied). I didn't go to university. Didn't have the option. I did lose my job and go onto solial welfare while I went back to college. I wouldn't consider this a "step back"

    There has always been the attitude that going to university rather than a technical college (Or no college at all) should guarantee one higher wages but the fact of the matter is, money goes where the demand is. 20 years ago it was semi-skilled manufacturing. Intel are about to start another round of hiring. Currently it's networking/security (Especially after the HSE breach). 20 years from now, it could be online media relations, who knows.

    The problem with Arts and similar qualifications is that they are so nebulous that they have little "Real World" application and simply form the basis for further, more focused education. By that time, many are already 2-3 years in their job. I could never work out why, given the option, someone would go for a course such as arts as opposed to a technical college, more-focused course. That's what my "Career Guidance" teacher told us too: "Go to university. Do ANYTHING in Uni. Leave the other jobs for the rest" (Unfathomable really). Thankfully he and his kind are LONG gone :).


    You could look into business and try to start your own media company.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    So? Are you your siblings? Forge your own path FFS.

    Just enjoy it. For God sake you will be old long enough!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,698 ✭✭✭Feisar


    No but the current housing shortage has us where we are. I believe there will be a reset of some form but it's at least twenty years away.

    First they came for the socialists...



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