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Russia - threadbanned users in OP

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,070 ✭✭✭thomil


    I’m just on the bus home, so for the time being, let me just address the last point you made: Scholz doesn’t give an airborne insect’s flatulence about the German economy at the moment. He only cares about his own ego and his pride.

    Good luck trying to figure me out. I haven't managed that myself yet!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,345 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    I'm not really getting the connection between more German weapons going to Ukraine and the oil and gas from Russia I think you made there if I understood it (right at the end)? I don't think Russia is going to cut these off in anger because Germany sends more weapons, esp. not some obsolete tanks and fighting vehicles. It wants and needs that money (which seems to get forgotten sometimes) just as Germany needs the energy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,299 ✭✭✭brickster69


    So it was a neutral country until 2014, i never knew that.

    "if you get on the wrong train, get off at the nearest station, the longer it takes you to get off, the more expensive the return trip will be."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,919 ✭✭✭ronivek


    Because one of the tools Russia has used in the past and has threatened to use is unilaterally disrupting oil/gas/coal supplies. Whether or not they would actually go through with it at this point is debatable: but Scholz and the German government strike me as exceedingly risk averse when it comes to their precious oil and gas.

    Likewise the markets and industries involved have been sounding alarm at even the mention of oil and gas embargoes; and markets could fall simply on the threat of unilateral action by Russia.

    If that isn't the reason (or at least a large part of the reason) then honestly I'm at a loss as to why Germany continues to block deals being done with Ukraine for old decommissioned equipment.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,067 ✭✭✭✭Danzy




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,815 ✭✭✭✭josip


    The problem for Putin is that although Mariupol may fall (how long has it been falling for now?), The Azovs won't be defeated and as momentum shifts in the south and east, Russia will get pushed back. So although they might declare "job done", the Ukrainians aren't going to let up. As we've seen in the north, the Russians can retreat much faster than they can advance. Reminds me of the joke about the Italian tank.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,067 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Da state of ya Russian army, I'm Scarla for yer Babushka.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,038 ✭✭✭jmreire


    Well to date, UN figures say that some 15'000 Russian soldiers have been killed, and that's a phenomenal Nr considering the duration of the war. And given that there are roughly 3 wounded for every KIA, these kind of figures should trigger a tidal wave of protest's. But it seems that for now at any rate Vlada's draconian punishment regime for any one protesting, is keeping the people at bay. For how long I wonder???



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,974 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    I remember reading something to the effect that one of the factors in the number of deaths is the absence of Russian medivac \ medical treatment support. There could be a large number in the numbers killed that could have been saved with better backup. But hey, cannon fodder is a Russian strategy.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,474 ✭✭✭zv2


    A lot of mobile phones went to the bottom with the ship so the people back home won't be getting calls from the crew.

    It looks like history is starting up again.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,299 ✭✭✭brickster69


    Looks like the first Russian bombers have been deployed on Azovstal tonight if true


    "if you get on the wrong train, get off at the nearest station, the longer it takes you to get off, the more expensive the return trip will be."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,038 ✭✭✭jmreire


    That's a very valid point, and would play into Putin's propaganda machine...Soldiers who later died from their wounds, were not killed in battle. And so keep the official Nrs down. ( not that you could believe any Nrs coming from them anyway.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,067 ✭✭✭✭Danzy



    "100 Leopard 1, 60 M113 tank mortars and more German weapons have been ready for delivery to Ukraine since March but the German government is not giving the final approval."

    Reichart is a journalist on one of Germany's leading news shows.


    Slowly but surely those who believe democracy in Europe is always to be defended gathers pace in Germany, the pressure on Scholz must be made unbearable.


    Berlin must be forced to understand that there is no cost benefit analysis with regard to Democracy in Europe. That policy change must be actioned, not just talked about repeatedly.

    When he cracks, that fissure will knock a key pillar supporting Putin.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,742 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Reports that Turkish/Romanian ships rescued 50-100 depending. I thought that Russian sources said that most of the crew were taken off before sinking?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,919 ✭✭✭ronivek


    Seems Germany is committing a further €2 billion to defence spending; "a large part of which" will go to Ukraine:

    Around 400 million euros alone are earmarked for the European Peace Facility, which buys weapons for Ukraine. In addition, there would be expenditure for the German armed forces and for deliveries to Ukraine and third countries. Ukraine can therefore count on more than one billion euros in support.

    There are some suggestions on Twitter that he will also approve purchases from German industry if Ukraine makes them: but I don't see any mention of that in the official reports.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,345 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    I don't know enough to know if the explanations/reasons I've read in the media for not doing it hold water (about those old vehicles specifically).

    You may be right about "risk averse" though. Could straight up fear of Russia (that it might find some grey area or military way to attack/punish Germany in particular?) be a reason? As I said the Russian "energy weapon" is a thing they can only use once, and at great harm to themselves also. Can't see them doing it over those 100 or so vehicles.

    I think it was a factor for some other European countries (or am I wrong there?). They wanted to coordinate things with the US and through NATO + with allies etc., not have situation develop where they were sticking out as a country giving some special assistance to Ukraine, which might attract Russia's particular attention for making an example.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,067 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Will it happen this year, the talk is non stop.


    Is it just another meaningless media stunt that starts to role back a few weeks later.


    There have been quite a few of those. I wouldn't be surprised if this eventually sees the Greens or leading members walk away from Govt. over these promises and the reality.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,919 ✭✭✭ronivek


    Yeah I don't see Russia cutting off German supply over a few old vehicles; just suggesting that even the very low risk of that happening might be enough to put off the German government. I mean I'm no expert on any of this either; just trying to think out loud really.

    As for other nations it's very hard to know what to think; but eastern European nations have begun sending heavier weapons and nothing has happened so presumably the threat of military repercussions is off the table. Also we now have the US and UK doing it so I would have thought Germany wouldn't really be able to use the "we won't do it unilaterally" excuse anymore.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Look at this **** Ukrainian pows taken to a cemetery and made kneel In front of a memorial , while being filmed by Russian media




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,345 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    No you're right, they can't if the "heavier" stuff (artlllery, vehicles, air defence etc.) from other countries (US/UK/Eastern Europe others) starts to go in there.

    On your comment "There are some suggestions on Twitter that he will also approve purchases from German industry if Ukraine makes them: but I don't see any mention of that in the official reports."

    I think that is happening with anti tank weapons and things like that isn't it? Germany (and others through EU fund) paying for it new from weapons makers and it going to Ukraine (i.e. not coming out of military stocks etc. - which Germany doesn't seem to have much of).



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,836 ✭✭✭threeball


    If they weren't defined as KIA they're not subject to a higher grade of compensation either.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,299 ✭✭✭brickster69


    Freedom of speech Astro. If people do not like other peoples opinions fair enough, but to deny or censor 100% factual truths or get upset or deny them is not great IMO.

    "if you get on the wrong train, get off at the nearest station, the longer it takes you to get off, the more expensive the return trip will be."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,469 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Numbers of survivors are believed to be very low. One estimate is that 50 sailors survived but another suggests it could be as low as 10 or 12 men rescued.

    This is definitely a PR disaster for the regime and one they haven't been able to keep secret from the Russian public.



  • Posts: 5,121 [Deleted User]


    sorry to break it to you Brickster, but your fake news isn’t truth and should be (and is being) called out



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 141 ✭✭RedCardKid


    This is no defence of the German government, however people on our wee island should consider the effects to the European economy if the Germans were to stop taking Russian gas tomorrow. As per German (also European) law, it would mean the first to go off the grid would be industrial consumers. This would mean major disruption for the following companies (off the top of my head), with the knock on effects going much further:

    BASF - biggest single private gas consumer in Germany - No Russian gas and production stops in their biggest facility in Germany - effects on the food, pharma, car, weapons .... industries to name a few.

    Evonik - same as above

    Bayer - major player in the pharma and agri industry

    VW, Audi, Ford, Toyota ... all would have delivery issues due to additives and plastics produced by the above companies

    TyssenKrupp Steel

    Georgsmarienhütte

    Take the last two above from the gas grid and the weapons industry would most certainly suffer. Take away BASF, Bayer and Evonik, the chemical and pharma industries would be struggling to produce, this would trickle down very quickly to everyday things worldwide. These are the fine things the German government are trying to balance, being very German about it, no knee jerk reactions. In the background, contracts are being sealed for LNG, Rotterdam and Southern Spain LNG terminals being used to test / balance the pressure in the European grid. Instead of gas being pumped from North to South, it is now being balanced from all directions.

    As much as we all love having a pop at the likes of Schulz, people should think outside the box. Yes the Germans did put themselves in the situation of dependancy on Russian fossil fuels, at the same time they neglected their own military, they have a pension system that is very close to breaking point, their brilliant medical system is suffering due to bad pay and a lack of staff. Add all together and maybe you will be able to understand why they are very careful. Inflation in Germany last month was approx. 7%, the highest it has been for over 20 years.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,395 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Hence the change in tone and that Russia may 'declare war' now on Ukraine, since they have perpetuated this terrible deed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,974 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    In what meaningful sense is a country that has been invaded multiple times still 'neutral' when it is in a state of war with the aggressor nation?

    Ukraine signed a treaty with Russia giving up its nuclear weapons in which Russia agreed to respect its territorial integrity and sovereignty?

    How many has Russia violated that treaty?

    Leaving those points out is a deliberate and willful misrepresentation. You can use facts woven a manner which is not 100% truthful.

    This is blatantly what you are doing which is multiple posters are calling you out on it.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,919 ✭✭✭ronivek


    The below might explain why there was confusion over whether the Moskva was being towed or not; it appears to show one or more vessels very close to the Moskva sometime after it was hit:




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,038 ✭✭✭jmreire


    Not only that, but promised higher pay scales and bonuses' are not being paid either. Also, Family's who sent money to their sons serving in Ukraine are receiving only empty envelopes.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,919 ✭✭✭GM228




This discussion has been closed.
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