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https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058419143/important-news/p1?new=1

Covid 19 Part XXXV-956,720 ROI (5,952 deaths) 452,946 NI (3,002 deaths) (08/01) Read OP

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Comments

  • #43922
    Micky 32
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,628 ✭✭✭Micky 32


    Another nice drop in hospitals this morning from 1333 to 1250. Keep her lit folks 😆

    That will be the main topic of discussion on Claire’s show this morning 😉



  • #43923
    FintanMcluskey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,740 ✭✭✭FintanMcluskey


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118892792#Comment_118892792

    More evidence that cases rise and fall organically without lockdowns or mitigation measures

    Unfortunately it took 2 years to figure that out



  • #43924
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 4,806 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118892822#Comment_118892822

    2 years later there is still not a shred of evidence that any of those "measures" actually did anything at all.

    Typically, we introduced the strictest measures every time we reached a peak. So people always assumed it was the restrictions.

    At least the evidence now shows us that it was all rubbish. Particularly some of the more ridiculous restrictions like 9 euro meals and closing pubs early or Lidl covering the middle aisle.



  • #43925
    Amadan Dubh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭Amadan Dubh


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118884512#Comment_118884512

    You can't trust anything out of China. Their economy is potentially about to collapse due to the property bubble popping the last few months. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see lockdown as a potential way to deflect.



  • #43926
    FintanMcluskey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,740 ✭✭✭FintanMcluskey


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118892877#Comment_118892877
    https://www.newstalk.com/news/covid-pandemic-excess-deaths-recorded-ireland-1329481

    HIQA said Ireland’s relatively low proportion of older adults, low population density and vaccination rollout all helped to reduce the levels of severe disease.

    So they are finally forced to admit it what a few of us said from the start.

    The lockdown's didn't save any lives in Ireland, demographics did.

    They also state the vaccination rollout helped lower excess deaths in 2020, which is a bit of an odd statement



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  • #43927
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 183 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It's far past time to admit that there are things that the state (and the collective - society as a whole) can do, and things that they can't do.

    Together, human societies have put footprints on the moon and have deployed robots on Mars. They've waged bloody wars and they've created masterpieces of art and architecture. Humanity is dark and light, and society amplifies this. There are many things we can accomplish when we combine our abilities. But, humanity has never been efficient at eradicating infectious diseases (there are two such cases AFAIK).

    Regardless of whether the state (and collective) could eradicate Covid - with intrusive, illiberal and what I consider to be morally offensive policies, there are also things that human societies should not do. And one of those things is lock healthy people in their homes for months on end.



  • #43928
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 4,806 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Indeed we can see now that lockdowns were never needed. We have evidence that cases go down with no need for masks or restrictions. And deaths were clearly overstated with only around 2000 excess deaths due to our demographics.

    What will never be fully clear is the damage that lockdowns caused. We now have huge levels of debt and inflation that will hinder us for years to come.

    But also what will be the impact of all the cancelled appointments and screenings etc. What's the impact on mental health.


    My guess is the people that ordered the lockdowns will try to distance themselves from all this quite quickly. They're already using the war to justify potential recession ahead.

    Tony got out of there quickly with his big pension.



  • #43929
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 183 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    One of the things that I have found very striking, and continue to do so - is the media silence on the events of the last two years with regards to the moral implications of lockdown. Outside of a few fringe outlets in the UK, there has been very little discussion of how our previously inalienable fundamental rights and civil liberties could be revoked at the whim of politicians/public opinion. To me, it spells trouble for the future for those of a more libertarian persuasion.

    Liberty is not absolute, of course, but neither is safety.



  • #43930
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,132 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Just a comment on hospital numbers today - 1251, which is heading for 400 cases lower (373 to be precise) than the peak of a week or so ago. At this rate they'll be down under 1,000 over the next week.



  • #43931
    giveitholly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,358 ✭✭✭giveitholly


    Can you imagine if the government had given into the pressure and mandated masks again for all public areas. The people looking for masks to return would be saying they are the reason cases are declining. Funny enough they seem very quite this week



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  • #43932
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118893286#Comment_118893286

    At no time has any document ever stated that fundamental rights were absolutely inviolable. There has always been scope for the cessation or pausing of human rights where necessary for the greater good. The right to freedom ceases when you are guilty of a crime. Your right to life is forfeit where you pose an immediate risk to someone else's. There is a constant balancing act between upholding/defending the rights of the individual and doing the same for society. There are occasions where one person's right violates another's. For example, one person's right to free speech might violate another person's right to live in peace without fear of violence. The state is the guardian of this balancing act.

    It's a complete fallacy that any rights were ever completely absolute, because completely inviolable rights are incompatible with society. No man is an island.

    As you say, neither liberty nor safety are absolute, it is important to balance the two.



  • #43933
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,953 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    Last weekend was i was Galway on a stag 17 to 22 lads over the two nights , numerous pubs, numerous place's to eat, all packed and of course loud & a bit messy, Train down & train back And only 1 of the group has come down with covid since

    I really thought there would be more but glad to see you can go about a weekend like that have good clean fun & not be sick afterward ( accept of course for the hangover)

    Nice to see life retuning to normal .,



  • #43934
    FintanMcluskey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,740 ✭✭✭FintanMcluskey


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118894479#Comment_118894479

    As you say, neither liberty nor safety are absolute, it is important to balance the two.

    Often in the past the sick were quarrantined, however, this time we also quarantined the healthy.



  • #43935
    Micky 32
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,628 ✭✭✭Micky 32


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118894355#Comment_118894355

    Another little drop this afternoon down to 1245. Unusual to see the hub report a drop during the day.



  • #43936
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 183 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118894529#Comment_118894529

    Yes, this was my main contention - quarantine of the healthy - guilty until proven innocent, guilty of a crime never committed.

    There was no need for policing the streets, no need to ban zero risk activities outside of a 5km radius (outdoor ones, for example).

    I totally agree that government need powers to prioritize and balance public health and liberty, but it is my view that the level of liberty curtailment we have seen in this country, both in terms of severity and duration was entirely disproportionate. There are severe crises that would require liberty to be curtailed, no dispute about that - but I do not regard a disease from which at least 99% of people survive (even prior to vaccine rollout) of which the average age of death is above or near national life expectancy as sufficient for the measures we've experienced. The virus is serious and warranted efforts to mitigate it but the balance was totally askew in this country. A report by the covid commission in 'no-lockdown' Sweden concluded that their response was 'fundamentally correct'. (https://www.thelocal.se/20220225/swedens-pandemic-strategy-fundamentally-correct-coronavirus-commission/)

    We can observe that public behaviour is the driver of the virus, not lockdown per se. In the UK the second wave peaked before the second national lockdown was enacted. Peru had severe lockdowns, yet one of the highest mortality rates (if not the highest) - Point being that there is no obvious correlation between lockdown stringency and mortality rates between countries.

    If the measures worked and were worth it, it should be abundantly obvious and it is not implausible that a similar level of safety could have been achieved with entirely voluntary measures instead of what I would describe of as despotic/totalitarian and legally enforced measures that we adopted.



  • #43937
    Deeper Blue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,500 ✭✭✭Deeper Blue





  • #43938
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,711 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    Meanwhile, in China


    https://mobile.twitter.com/aliceysu/status/1511558828802068481?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1511558828802068481%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fnotthebee.com%2Farticle%2Fshanghai-residents-shout-from-their-windows-to-protest-covid-lockdown-drone-appears-in-sky-with-message-control-your-desire-for-freedom

    this is just, I don't know...extremely disturbing. Literally like some futuristic dystopian movie. How long can they keep up this zero covid nonsense?



  • #43939
    Atlantic Dawn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,429 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    GDY151


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896636#Comment_118896636

    As the source of it they pretty much had it coming to them, bad in all it is to say that. They have basically fooked up the world for 5 years or so with their secrecy and fooking around with still after all the harm they have done eating wild animals, complete tools.



  • #43940
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 183 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896636#Comment_118896636

    A totalitarian state,and not one that we should look to for inspiration when tackling any problem.



  • #43941
    Amenhotep
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 206 ✭✭Amenhotep


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896636#Comment_118896636

    And remember the amount of people in Ireland (a lot on this thread) that wanted the Chinese way ....


    disturbing indeed.



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  • #43942
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,132 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118895226#Comment_118895226

    In the face of an unknown pathogen caution and a reversion to familiar methods were natural approaches to choose. That some of it was probably excessive was recognised in later phases of the pandemic. Those conclusions were informed by a whole lot of data, new knowledge and some very smart people. At the core of ours was an urgent need to protect a very frail health system and while some measures were maintained for too long they did largely serve that purpose.

    The country comparison is a bit of a false trail to dodgy data and you end up comparing apples and coconuts. In Sweden 38% live alone, the French and other European cultures live life on the street and on top of each other and I'm not sure what Peru has to teach us anyway. Our closest neighbours made so many bad decisions about COVID, at times they were just best ignored.

    The key to managing future pandemics is being prepared, monitoring and sharing data. On that front China really did shaft the rest of the world and made addressing the problem a whole lot worse. Then again few countries had plans to deal with it anyway. Even South Korea and now China are finding their one size fits all does not cut it.



  • #43943
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 183 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896943#Comment_118896943

    Name one pandemic response, in history, in a liberal democracy where quarantine of the healthy at population level was enacted. You won't be able to - why not? Because prior to the WFH and digital age, it was not possible. Therefore, lockdown at national level, in a democracy, was an unthinkable concept prior to 2020 - so these methods were not 'familiar'.

    Your closest neighbours, who clearly have a more vulnerable population, older population and much higher population density, also respected liberty a lot more. It's a lot easier to police a small population than a large one.

    Looking at data is not a false trail, without data we can draw no conclusions. But, it is complicated and it's likely that we may never get firm answers. So why do something so destructive, so divisive and so inhumane (for lack of a better word), if we are unsure if it would even work?

    The enormous power of media-driven public opinion, that's why.

    The key to managing future pandemics is going to need to look at all of the implications. Not just the medical, scientific ones. But the moral ones, the economic ones, the philosophical ones - after all, a pandemic is not just an issue of science or medicine.

    Personally, I think it's immoral to impose house arrest on the population, we are not livestock.



  • #43944
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896979#Comment_118896979

    Nobody was under house arrest and there was no "quarantine of the healthy" in place. Always with the hyperbole.

    There were similar measures enacted across the western world in the 1918/19 'flu pandemic. Lots of people under the impression that all of the measures for Covid were unprecedented, when in fact they were perfectly standard. It was just rarely mentioned in the brief discussions of that pandemic which people got in school.



  • #43945
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 183 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897042#Comment_118897042

    Ok, so being restricted to 5km for many months and being told to stay home unless necessary is not equivalent to house arrest? Coupled with checkpoints? Don't accuse my post of hyperbole, when I state fact - the two things are broadly similar, the effect is the same.

    The measures adopted in the US (New York, mostly) were much less strict, did not last for a duration one can measure in years and did not close down entire sectors of the economy for months. They also did not include domestic travel limits.

    Most of Europe did not instantiate such restrictions. Your history on this subject is not sound, the scale of the response to this pandemic is totally unprecedented in democracies.



  • #43946
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,132 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896979#Comment_118896979

    TBH this seems to be all about how you dealt with this. Not sure how a virus knows what a liberal democracy is anyway anymore than it knows that a €9 meal will protect people. I agree on one thing, that the beginnings of it were extreme but in mitigation we did not know what we were dealing with. The pandemic gave us a chance to look at ourselves and in some cases learn patience and resilience. Many did but quite a few did not and took great umbrage at their freedoms being curtailed. That is their right but it was a bit fruitless and only likely to fuel more outrage.

    The good thing about a future pandemic, ideally not one for at least 20 years is that we will have a memory of it and will revert quite easily to some of the measures we've adopted over these last two years. Yes, the approach will be different but better managed through all of the things you suggest.

    My view is we did what we felt we had to do, not through control or some illiberal leanings, but because we didn't see any other choice. "This is our strategy", said the CMO in March 2020, "and we believe it is the right one.". I also feel that we ended it when we felt it was right. That Martin quote of "needing to repay trust" from earlier this year is a good closing argument for our emergency.



  • #43947
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    @[Deleted User] wrote:

    Ok, so being restricted to 5km for many months and being told to stay home unless necessary is not equivalent to house arrest?

    No, my friend. It's not. It's not even close. To claim it is, is hyperbole. Quite hysterical, in fact.



  • #43948
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 183 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897068#Comment_118897068

    I admire the psychological penetration that you can obtain from a handful of board posts! However, you know nothing about me, so I wouldn't fabricate fictions in your mind about that.

    I've dealt with this the way most of us have, obeyed the rules and hoped for the end. However, I do take offence to being treated like a child or livestock.



  • #43949
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 183 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897095#Comment_118897095

    Perhaps it is not similar to you, I know nothing about you and won't speculate. However, for some, who are not Irish born, who travel a lot (nationally or internationally) - being restricted to 5km is broadly similar to house arrest. I object to claims of 'hysteria' when you know nothing about mine (or others') private lives.



  • #43950
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897113#Comment_118897113

    Object all you like. The fact that you like to travel is irrelevant. It's not house arrest. Your feelings are irrelevant. It's not house arrest.



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  • #43951
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 183 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897119#Comment_118897119

    Well, we are never likely to agree but I will say this - if one has thought their position out carefully, it is unlikely that one will change their mind. Let's agree to disagree.

    I would also add that there is a vast chasm of distance between 'liking' to travel versus needing to travel to visit friends/family - human interaction is not just a hobby - it's a basic human need.



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