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Stopping trespassers

13

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,425 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    I think the responsibility of the land owner to keep animals on their property... if a trespasser goes on a property and gets injured tough... The problem for me is OP decided some people could trespass all be it with permission... I may be wrong but i do not think any need for sign unless there is right of way...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,327 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    No. You would be far better off with the sign. Duty of care under common law it to take reasonable care that a trespasser is not injured. I think you might need one one H&S regulations anyway.

    If it could be shown that that field was being used with the knowledge of the owner, who suddenly decided to place a dangerous animal there, that could constitute reckless disregard. A lot will depend on context.

    You are normally allowed, for example, to potentially have spikes or glasses at the of walls along a boundary as a security measure. You obviously just can't have dangerous things at a height that a normal person could become injured. However there was a case where a boy got injured climbing across a wall. I think there was broken glass embedded in the top of it. It was given as evidence that the boys always played football in the area and would frequently have to retrieve their balls from the garden. So the judge found the property owner negligent as they would have been aware


    Edit: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/injured-trespasser-wins-6-500-in-damages-1.1061484

    Post edited by Donald Trump on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,425 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    you probably right... reminds me of...

    young bull says to old bull... lets run down the hill and talk to a couple of these cows.... Auld bull replies... lets walk down and talk to them all...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 830 ✭✭✭CreadanLady


    i dont get it

    The MFV Creadan Lady is a mussel dredger from Dunmore East.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,425 ✭✭✭maestroamado




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  • Posts: 870 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Of course it isn't, but ask Frog Ward what he thinks about it.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,493 Mod ✭✭✭✭K.G.


    Gone a bit ridiculous. For what it's worth you have to reclaim your land first and then make it less appealing to trespassing and what ever activities they are involved. Really you're just trying to get them to move else



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 849 ✭✭✭Easten


    That's an interesting case. I wonder does the same duty of care apply to Barbed wire on a boundary wall on the edge of a public road



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,357 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    First off slurry is only a short term solution it's duration is only 2-3 week at month most. Cost could be horrendous if the draw is long. As well if the land has been neglected it may be hard to carry out that option.

    Reclaim may not necessarily stop them entering the land. When reclaimed what agri activity do you carry out. Tillage is not an option as they could leave object's such as bikes that will damage harvesters.

    OP you will either have to live with the trespassers and keep informing guards of there presence or carry out an agri activity that will prevent there access.

    For the quasi legal people the courts are quite clear you owe no duty if care to a trespassers as long as you do not intentionally attempt to injure them. This allows farmers to carry out agriculture activity without the fear of someone getting injured or even killed during trespassing. This law has been tested in many accidental cases and has never been successfully challenged. It is not just related to agriculture it has been used by Coilte ( a wooden broadwalk where some slipped), also by a Retailer carpark where a customer was taking a regular short cut and fell where there was steps available.

    OP is entitled to carry out an agricultural activity on his land. He may change that activity either through economic necessity or in this case bacase he can carry out no other activity like sheep farming because of dog or tillage because of potential machinery damage or crop damage

    If it was me I would clean any rubble etc into a corner of the field. Fence the field with electric fence if possible ( but because of potential theft of energiser you would probably have to use barbed wire. 3-4 rows. I have would install a crush and handling faculities( or probably use a portable crush when loading) . Then I would put in the JEx ideally or FRX bulls.

    I would put in place appropriate signs at possible entry point beware of Bull or Electric fence. I would also make sure to have appropriate insurance in place.

    Other than that it's do a deal.withnsome rough lads with horses and again put appropriate insurance in place.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,054 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    "Other than that it's do a deal.withnsome rough lads with horses.."

    A neighbour did that once and things started sprouting legs and walking from our place. Do not invite in or engage with this subculture for any reason, they might end up being worse than the teenagers.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,601 ✭✭✭Dunedin


    Liability is far from the black and white you subscribe to.

    assuming that the OP does not have any other JEX bulls, then an isolated purchase of same and putting them in that field, irrespective of signs, fencing, etc. would be a dicey prospect to defend in court in the event of serious injury and/or fatality.

    Post edited by Dunedin on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,327 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    For the quasi legal people the courts are quite clear you owe no duty if care to a trespassers as long as you do not intentionally attempt to injure them.

    Not quite true Bass. The Occupiers Liability Act was introduced to clear up some issues in that regard but it does not apply to every circumstance. Where that Act does not apply, you fall back to the common law. Pages 2 and 3 of the below link make a reference to the ESB case I mentioned plus one or two others. They are not farming related but that doesn't matter. Those are part of the common law and the duty of care is higher under that.

    https://www.cpaireland.ie/CPAIreland/media/Education-Training/Study%20Support%20Resources/F1%20Bus%20Laws/Relevant%20Articles/the-duty-of-care-in-irish-tort-law.pdf

    Ordinary agricultural activity is fine.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 830 ✭✭✭CreadanLady


    100% and this the the point I have been trying to make all along. Unless you routinely have bulls on your farm, getting a one off purchase of an aggressive breed of bull (or a few of them) and putting them in a field that you know to be frequented by teenagers, well I would be leaning towards that been seen by a judge as reckless endangerment.

    Because

    1. you knew that they were a dangerous animal,
    2. you knew that this particular field was popular with teenagers hanging around
    3. as an experienced farmer you ought to have known that a bull and teenagers on the same turf was a highly risky mix
    4. but you knowingly went ahead and did it anyway, knowing the potentially lethal consequences, and a man of your experience on the land ought to have known that teenagers accustomed to roaming that land are unlikely to pay much heed to warnings and signs.

    I think at best it would be seen as reckless, and at worst seen as a deliberate act intended to cause harm to a trespasser.

    Cluelessly causing a dangerous situation out of thoughtlessness or ignorance is one thing, but to deliberately and knowingly create a dangerous situation is a very different and much more serious affair.

    You could rest assured, that the plaintiff's barrister in a civil case would be pounding this line of argument across the bench.

    The MFV Creadan Lady is a mussel dredger from Dunmore East.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,357 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Totally unrelated. In the case you quoted the person is treated as an invited guest in what is supposed to be a controlled environment. We have had this debate regarding recreational users and trespassers on agriculture land. The case you quoted would be similar to a person on a building site.

    I agree. However there has been no case since the act was introduced where a trespasser has successfully sued a farmer. The act has applied elsewhere as I said in the carpark and in the case of the recreational user and Coilte.

    There is also the right of an individual to use there property to make a living through carrying out agriculture activity. Remember cows kill and injure more every year than bulls. A judge would have to make a definitive decision limiting an individual's use of his property, and limiting his ability to earn a living.

    A landmark judgement like this would have massive implications and I cannot see a judge making such a decision lightly. There are some posters giving the impression that such a judgement is an open and shut case. I be of the opinion that the law would be very reluctant to pass such a judgement.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,327 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    There was outrage (for want of a better word) by farming groups when the ESB case was decided as it did have massive implications for farmers. People did not expect it at the time. It was part of the reason why the 1995 Act was brought in. For most land related issues, the Act will cover it and risk of a surprise is not there to the same extent.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,601 ✭✭✭Dunedin


    ‘This law has been tested in many accidental cases and has never been successfully challenged. It is not just related to agriculture it has been used by Coilte ( a wooden broadwalk where some slipped), also by a Retailer carpark where a customer was taking a regular short cut and fell where there was steps available.’

    Is a customer in a retail car park not an invited guest?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,357 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    The customer is an invited guest into the carpark and the shopping area. This was a retailer ( supermarket not a retail park) who provide a safe parking area and an exit via steps ( and I presume wheelchairs) to access and egress to the street footpaths alongside. The was a rat run via a grass bank used by some shoppers. The case involved a shopper using this grassy bank who slipped and broke a bone. The court held that when the went onto the grassy area they were trespassers. As long as they were in the car park area, the steps to the footpath and the shopping area they were invited guest.

    As I said the law is clear and has NEVER being successfully challenged.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,357 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Yo are making assumptions that would put limits on property right, limits on the ability if a farmer to make a living and you are making assumptions based on a complete lack of farming knowledge.

    As I said more people are killed and injured by cows than bulls. Your assumptions would mean the farmer could not place cows in the field either. I have been attacked by a ram and the except that I managed to pick up a Brussels sprout root I would have been seriously hurt by him.

    You are implying chances of liability where they may not exist. Barristers and solicitors make any case they wish. The trespassers and recreation users act has NEVER been successfully challenged.

    As I said you are making assumptions where a judge would be limiting the commercial choice of a farmer, his property right ( to earn a living from his land). To add to this his rights are already impinged because of the field being access by dogs and trespessers

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,327 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Bass, if you are referring to this case


    I think it was more that the appeal judge said that the owner actually satisfied their duty of care rather to visitors rather than be considering the claimant to be a trespasser and that they basically weren't responsible for fencing off everything when they had clearly provided safe routes



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,425 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    I was just reading this morning that a man was accidentally shot 3 times a farmer a few weeks ago... interesting read...



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 997 ✭✭✭iColdFusion


    Just sell the land to some property developer for 27 million euro and retire 😄


    Seriously I think slurry would do the job, even if you only do it two or three times over a few weeks its enough to change their behavior and get them to find somewhere else, no-one wants to fall off a bike into a pile of shite or have to wash their dog covered in it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,410 ✭✭✭✭patsy_mccabe


    Look, just take the Texas approach - Shoot, Shovel and Shut Up.

    Works every time, most of the time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,666 ✭✭✭✭Base price


    I remember reading about a court case in the IFJ in the late 80's/early 90's. My memory of the details are hazy but a judge ordered a dairy farmer to remove a bull (that was running with cows) from his lands that was beside a recently built housing estate. The farmer claimed that he had the right to farm it and had sinage in place to warn that a bull was present. The judge took the view that minors may not be able to read/understand the signage. The judge made the comment that the farmer had recourse to using AI and running a bull wasn't necessary. I think the case was on the outskirts of Mullingar but stand corrected.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,357 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Ya I say that is the case. I think the 1995 act came into play as the plaintiff was a trespasser in that they did not park there to go shopping.

    The appeal judge actually set the bar fairly high for any similar cases if you read the judgement. He mentioned that a golfer would be similar and that even in such a situation a child could have a weak case if he was playing on such a grassy bank.

    There is similar case law building about recreational areas where the law seem to taking a lead on people personnel decision to do something and that it is reasonable to assume that they should have taken more care.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 446 ✭✭rs8


    I got the biggest laugh out of alot of legal tripe talked here.

    Regards the land .. as one poster suggested.. if its beside houses its probably zoned and worth a bit in the current climate. Probably selling it and getting a more suitable parcel of land would solve alot of problems.

    From past experiance a neighbour of mine had a similar problem and bought weanlings not pinched for this certain field .. as they came on and got big for the summer months they spent alot if time in that field. He had all his fences right and gates lock etc. Never had a problem after that.. he got hard to go into the field himself. Your a farmer .. you have the right to put what ever animal you want into the field .. your intensions are hear say



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,327 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    The judge only referred to the claimant as a "visitor" and assessed only the duty of care to visitors. The word "trespass" (or "trespasser") does not appear in the judgment.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,327 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Well you can laugh at the legal "tripe" all you wish. As they say - ignorance is bliss, but if you find yourself suddenly on the wrong side of the system, ignorance of the law will not be taken as an excuse.

    Your story about your buddy is irrelevant as nobody was injured. What the OP was concerned about was liability if someone did get injured. It didn't arise for your buddy. It won't arise in most cases. If it does arise, then you might find out that the law is "unfair". At that stage it is too late to go back to leave yourself in a better position



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,357 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    There is factors aside from the legal tripe as you put it. Selling may seem an easy out. But at present with inflation having money in the bank is leaving it at the mercy of inflation.

    Buying again. OP may feel this piece of land has good investment potential and may not have maximised yet. Trying to buy land instead of it will have costs in the 10%+ region. Looking at other property house prices dictate against a rental investment. Renovation costs dictate against buying property to do up. I would not have ever had commercial property so I will not venture a guess as to its suitability.

    After that pension/stock market investment have there downsides as well.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6 damn neighbours


    The land is rural. 4km from a village 6km from a town. There is one house next to the field where the kid will kick the ball over the wall and retrieve, no problem with that.

    The people on bikes aren't kids, maybe leaving cert or earlier 20's and they park their cars down the road. I have two number plates taken note off.

    Yesterday, I brought the digger in and drove over ramps, dug some holes and pushed some stones into the holes. It started raining so I ended up just making a mess for a finish. I a have wrapped bull wire tightly around the top of the gate, covered the gate with chicken coup wire and added another looser fitting strand of bull wire. The walls themselves are fine and behind a ditch.

    If some clown somehow gets hurt on the gate will there be a problem for me? It's locked and there is a private property sign attached.


    Thanks for all the comments.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,357 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    No there should not be. Just keep your insurance paid.

    Slava Ukrainii



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