Stopping trespassers

damn neighbours

Hello, I'm new here and hopefully I posted in the correct section.

I'm having an issue with people using some of my land without my permission. People walking dogs and more importantly people cycling and making ramps etc on the land.

Bit of background. I let one fellow who grew up with my son use the land to exercise his two German Shepherds, off lead no muzzle etc as they are well trained and all that. I have known him for over 20 years and I offered him use of the field. The field has stones dumped into it, some trees and bush area, basically I never had much interest in cleaning up the field for a few reasons. He offered to pay for using it, which I refused but he always gives me a few sleeves of cigarettes when he comes back from holidays and whiskey and a hamper at Xmas. He is the only one I gave permission to well his wife as well.

Other people with less well trained dogs seem to think its fine to walk their dogs in this field now. There can be calves and lambs (not mine) in the surrounding fields and some of these people don't seem to have manners or control on their dogs which is something I dislike as it's probably only a matter of time until an accident occurs. Now there is lads racing bikes around the field and jumping ramps. I have approached people and either got a sorry or some colourful language of them. I put up signs, a lock on the gate that only I and the person I gave permission to have a key for, but after that the ramps started to appear.

Yesterday, when I was on the tractor I seen the person who has permission to use the field going in the direction of the field so I went down for a chat and see how he was. Next thing I see some clown on a bike nearly crash into one of his dogs and he proceed to throw a rock at the dog and I just lost the plot completely.

The local Garda has zero interest in doing anything. Signs and a lock are useless. I don't have the time to sit there waiting for people to show up to stop them.

Any ideas on what to do next?

Vittu

Spread slurry on it

dobman88

Pop down with a gun over your shoulder if you hold a licence and tell them next time you'll be firing it.

o1s1n

Is the field fenced off? How are the people with the bikes and the ramps getting in?

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118879270#Comment_118879270

Good way of getting the guards interested in your case, for all the wrong reasons.

Maybe have the gun taken off you too.

dobman88

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118879293#Comment_118879293

Is someone not entitled to use a licenced firearm to protect their land from trespassers and potential animal attacks?

That's a genuine question because I have no idea but I assume they would and can't see a reason why they wouldn't.

damn neighbours

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118879287#Comment_118879287

Stone walls all round. Lifting bikes (mountain bikes not motorbikes) over the gate. Ramps are either small light plywood or branches tied together to go over small mounds

Ginger83

I second slurry, preferably pig slurry.

Do you mean scrambler bikes? If so plough it.

damn neighbours

I don't have a gun which is probably for the best.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118879315#Comment_118879315

You're in the wrong country for having a gun for 'home dee-fense'.

In any case the OP doesn't have a gun.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118879333#Comment_118879333

Any chance of putting some farm animals in there temporarily or is the ground too unsuitable in it's current state?

Mountain bikers definitely won't want to cycle around a field covered in cow shite. Even if you just had a few animals for a bit to turn them off they might just move on somewhere else and then forget about your field.

dobman88

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118879383#Comment_118879383

Fair enough. I dont get the "home Dee-fense" reference? And yeah, moot point as he doesn't have one anyway. I grew up in a rural area and would never dream of crossing a field unless I knew who owned it and knew it was safe to do so or had permission.

Always assumed farmers had the right to use a gun to protect their land from trespassers so you saying they dont is an interesting one for me

CreadanLady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118879270#Comment_118879270

The only thing those sort of veiled threats will achieve is the Gardai on your doorstep and forfeiture of your gun and licence.

There really is limited list of things you can do.

1. Fence off the land with palisade fencing, with you and that chap having the keys.
2. reclaim the land and plant it with forestry, with a more modest fence

At the end of the day the field is now seen as a borderline public amenity with people going in and out willy nilly. The only thing that will stop them is to fundamentally change the perception of the place.

CreadanLady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118879315#Comment_118879315

No.

There are 3 potential legitimate uses possible for guns in this country. Pest control. Hunting. Gun clubs. Literally any other use whatsoever is illegal and will almost always result in confiscation of the gun and forfeiture of your licence if caught.

This isn't the USA. Thankfully.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118879431#Comment_118879431

No they don't, unless that trespasser is a dog. Guards take a very dim view of using guns to threaten a person, even in in jest.

damn neighbours

I suppose the best thing to do is bring it the digger some evening and see if I can make it less desirable for bikes.

What happens if they break a bone in the field? With signs and a lock have I liable?

Mooooo

Make sure you have public liability insurance anyway. Stick away up signs if you want but they have feckall legal defense afaik. Best prob to put up a decent fence and reclaim the field for some form of use of your own.

damn neighbours

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118879568#Comment_118879568

I'm covered all right but don't want insurance premium to go through the roof with a claim or a few of them.

James2022

We covered the top of our gates in barbed wire and in some areas added an extra piece of strained barbed wire over the top. We also got mesh gates on the roads that you can't get a foothold in and animals can't go through. That was the end of people trying to get in. It's all legal since its stock proofing the boundaries and is not done with the intention to harm trespassers, it also isn't a hidden danger.

What you need to do is get a digger in and reclaim the field. If not possible then get a tanker or slurry spread after you dispose of all the ramps.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118879497#Comment_118879497

It depends what happened. Say the person set up a ramp and injured themselves. In that case the trespasser put themselves in danger and the landowner wouldn't be held liable. They are at fault in the eyes of the law and the case would be thrown out, many examples of this online. You could also easily sue for trespassing/littering etc if you were inclined. If you have notified the guards about trespassers then that is a large amount of evidence in your favour.

Now if you were to dig a trench before the ramp or set up barbed wire across a track to catch one of them then you are in the wrong. That would be clear you were aware of trespassing and set up a way to injure them. The law in Ireland is that your farm must be safe. Same way you can't have bear traps set up in your own house. The law states you have a duty of care to trespassers, meaning you can't intentionally harm them.

The Continental Op

Grease all over the top of the gate? Or anti climb/vandal paint https://www.amazon.co.uk/Blackfriar-Climb-Vandal-Paint-Black/dp/B0091T7NGU/

Just leave enough clear to get the padlock off and open the gate without getting covered in it.

CreadanLady

Finally, the voice of reason and sense. Take good heed of that post above OP.

And ignore the juvenile nonsense of swaggering around with a shotgun under your arm 'Murica style. If you did that, a few lads making ramps for mountain bikes would be the least of your worried while you are up in front of a judge for using your gun to intimidate someone.

cjpm

Plough it. Get rid of all stones rocks branches etc. Then reseed it. Make it as boring and unappealing as possible. Also say no to the original fella with the Alsatians. It’s not worth the trouble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118879850#Comment_118879850

Just curious, if the OP knows there's ramps there and doesn't take steps to remove them, does his liability change? If a different person got injured on one of the ramps, that they just happened across, where is the liability resting then?

OP, You need to make it very clear you aren't consenting to the land being used. I'd go so far as to either rent it (for a nominal sum perhaps) to the guy you are happy to have use it and let him insure it or clear and plough the field and re-secure it fully.

jimini0

Accidentally connect a battery electric fence to the gate. Hide the unit out of sight. A wallop of electricity will help deter them from the gate. Tell your friend who you let use the field first though.

Bass Reeves

I somehow think this is am unused field at the edge of a large urban area. It's has been used as a dumping ground historically for builders rubble. This type of neglected land always attracts near do wells. A couple of the rough boys with horses are your best bet.

PS there is one other options, 10 -12 JE or JEx 2year old bulls. Nobody will go into a field with them

cjpm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118880957#Comment_118880957

They are like hell. Try getting them out once they’re in.

CreadanLady

Again, an electric fence and gate during like that will have you up in front of a judge when the wrong person gets a rap off it and sees that it was deliberately wired up to hurt someone. That's assault you could be up for. And if you're very very unlucky someone with a weak heart or pacemaker could die from a shock like that that would be nothing to you or I.

Op ignore ludicrously bad and dangerous advice like this. It'll only get you into trouble. Potentially very serious trouble.

whelan2

Sounds like young people on bikes? I had a few in last year, I went to their parents, I didn't go mad just said , they have no permission to be there and what happens if they get injured. That was the end of it

CramCycle

Put up a sign with a "Warning: Danger ahead, do not cross" at all entrances, and fencing, keep pulling the ramps down and they will get bored.If you put up an electric fence, same thing, put up a sign. You know people are using it and you have a legal obligation to them whether you like it or not (I don't agreee but it is what it is). The signs up wil mitigate in case of an accident. The tresspassers will be prosecuted signs won't give you any such mitigation.

The silly suggestions above about wiring the gate or the gun will end you up in front of a judge, and you will have an assault charge on your record at the very least.

The regrettable thing is that you knowing about it makes it more difficult for you if something does happens so act now, get it sorted and be done with it.

whelan2

Apparently if you have danger on a sign, it's admitting there is danger . Caution is a better word

Bellview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118880975#Comment_118880975

getting the JE or JeX out could be as tough😀

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118882656#Comment_118882656

It would be worse. You would want them well used of an electric fence. Vicious f@@kers. Nobody would go for not that field while they were there, well of they did they would not be walking back out.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118880084#Comment_118880084

It's a shame and, this coming from a landowner, it's also a shame that there's no right to roam like some of Scandinavian countries where people actually behave themselves and respect property. Cleaning up after them that you'd never know anyone camped there.

We can't have that here because our arseholes do whatever they feel like and sue you if they so much as stub their toe.

LawBoy2018

CreadanLady

putting a bull in the field is stupid advice. A bull breed known to be aggressive even moreso. It is in the same league as confronting tresspassers with a gun under your arm, and wiring up the gate to an electric fence.

If someone gets hurt or killed by that bull then you are up in front of a judge with a barrister questioning you......

You were aware that the field was often tresspassed upon by walkers and mountain bikers? And that they tended to disobey signs warning them to keep out?

Would you consider that type of bull to be dangerous to a person walking in the field who is not familiar with handling bulls.

Do you normally keep such bulls? When did you get him and for what reason did you get that particular breed?

But yet you decided to put a bull in that field, and not just any bull, a bull breed known to be more volatile than average.

And why did you choose to put that particular bull in that particular field? You have a a large farm with many other fields, some of them farther away from this area, and which were not frequented by tresspassers. Why did you put him in that field, and not in another field that didn't have a tresspassing problem?

Judge, it is the prosecutions opinion that Op deliberately put a volatile breed of bull into a field that was frequently tresspassed upon in an effort to deter would be tresspassers from entering the land, and he did so knowing full well that the bull would be a grave danger to any person who did enter the field. And the sad result was the death of a young man who was not accustomed to being around large farm animals and was unaware of the severe danger in the field.

Good luck coming out the right side of that in court.

Can people please stop suggesting that the op do things that are going to get him in trouble and put other people at risk of injury.

maestroamado

If i were me i would ask your friend that is using to leave and buy a bull...

CreadanLady

As I said, a bull is asking for serious trouble.

You won't be able to defend putting a lethal animal into a field known to be popular with tresspassers. The judge will see through it straight away that you did it deliberately as a deterrent.

Putting a lethal hazard like a bull in is grossly inadvisable. It is the equivalent of lacing the place with land mines. A deliberate action done to put tresspassers in danger of serious injury or death.

If it is on the verge of an urban area, you cannot reasonably expect teenagers and the like to be aware of the dangers of bulls, especially when it appears overnight in a field that is regularly tresspassed on and that did not have a bull until one random morning.

You won't be able to defend that in court. It'll be manslaughter.

Whether we like or not, any landowner has a duty of care to anyone who might be on a premises, whether they be an employee or a tresspasser or a friend with permission. And that goes for whether it is a business premises, a field, a construction site, a hotel, anywhere. No amount of moaning or bitching is going to change that. it is a fact of life. And farmers are not immune to that principle of law.

If that field is regularly tresspassed on , then any of these dangerous things like diggin big holes, electrifying gates, vicious bulls, walking around with guns etc are, sooner or later, going to end in tears and with the OP up in court for either a civil or criminal case or both. They are irresponsible, immature and dangerous actions.

The way around this is to fence it off securely, clear and re-seed that land, or put it in forestry or a crop or something. None of them are cheap, but it is cheaper than having to pay a solicitor and barrister to defend you in court and pay the inevitable damages claim.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118883236#Comment_118883236

No its not. Farmers have bulls in fields all the time. With dairy bred inefficent converting animals leaving as bulls is practised reqularly. He would not be putting in one but rather 10+. Put up a standard bewrae of bull sign. Biggest issue is you need excellent fencing. Why you put them there is a two way road. If you cannot farm anything else there Sheep horses or other cattle because of dogs or people interfering with them, then putting bulls in the field may be the only farm animal you can farm on it.

While solicitors can argue any point the judge also has to consider the land is yours, you are entitled to farm it ad try to make a living off it.

whisky_galore

Putting a bull in when you've no business having a bull is just creating mischief though.

Some of the the suggestions here are like a Looney Tunes cartoon.

James2022

Putting in a bull overnight would be a hard case to defend but it would still fall on the trespasser to prove to the court it was done with malicious intent. In this case the evidence would be against the landowner.

Cleaning up the field with a digger, fencing and then putting in a bull(s) with warning signs would plant the fault directly on the trespasser since they knowingly and illegally entered into a field with a dangerous animal. It's going to be a slow process to stop trespassing but it starts with retaking the field. Just pile everything in one corner, fence the field and put stock in. If its surrounded by neighbours then I'm sure they'd like to use it for grazing if you don't. Again do not try to harm trespassers with hidden traps. A court case will cost you more than that field.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118880294#Comment_118880294

That is an interesting question. The landowner didn't lay the ramps nor is it public property but if he has told the guards about the ramps then he is aware of them and could be held liable.

CreadanLady

Yes I get you, but putting a bull in a field as part of your routine farming operation is one thing.

But suddenly putting a bull into a field you know to have tresspassers, and when you never previously put a bull, and when you had other fields that were less risky to have a bull in them, will be seen for what it is - a deliberate act done to install a danger into a place as a deterrent.

If the OP never previously kept a bull, and then all of a sudden aquires a bull and just by chance puts it in that particular field, will only copperfasten that argument. If you never had bulls before, why suddenly get one? And why put it in the place where it is likely to present the greatest danger to other people?

At absolute best, the OP would be seen to have failed to adequately consider the impact of their actions on safety of people on the land, which he knew full well was happening, and failed to reduce the risk. At worst, he could be up for manslaughter.

You absolutely would not have a hope in hell of winning a case like that.

Even in normal circumstances, did you ever hear of someone being killed by a bull and a court or the HSA saying that the farmer did verything 100% right and that they could not have done any more and they they are absolved of all liability and are in the clear.

JustJoe7240

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118883395#Comment_118883395

Do you have a license to practice law or are you speculating?

CreadanLady

And another thing, I guess that because there are bike ramps and the like, the field is close to an urban area with estates and children and teenagers. THerefore, anyone with experience would know that it is the last place you should be putting bulls unless you cannot avoid it. If you have other more rural fields farther out, and you need to keep bulls, then the basic principles of prevention woudl tell you that you should put the bulls in the part of the farm where they are least likely to be a danger - ie, fields farther away from houses, farther away from the road etc, and put the less risking activities near the more sensitive neighbours.

All that aside, at the end of the day, if you end up in court for an accident on land, be it because of animals or machinery or whatever, the reality is you are not going to win a case. The reality is that the legal system is biased in favour of the injured party, and the burden of liability is with the owner of the offending animal/machine/building almost by default.

When was the last time someone was killed by an animal or machine, or fell down a hole, and a court ruled that it was the person was liable for their own demise? Yeah, practically never. Not any time in modern times anyway.

James2022

I tried searching but I can't find much information on the laws for trespassers being injured by animals. I can only find laws around cattle trespassing onto neighbour's property. They have public liability laws in the UK but I don't recall every hearing about a case brought against a farmer in Ireland when stock injured a trespasser.

CreadanLady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118883433#Comment_118883433

I am not a lawyer, nor am i speculating wildly, but I can tell you this , I have enough experience and knowlege through my line of work that tells me that knowingly placing hazards and ignoring or deliberately creating risks is not going to end well when you end up in court.

When you are facing a claim, you are immediately on an uphill battle as the reality is the legal system is biased in favour of the injured party. And if you have done things to exacerbate risks, then you are extremely unlikely to be able to defend it succesfully and to be able to walk away in the clear. Even if you do somehow manage to win, you are still facing what may be very significant legal costs.

I can tell you, putting up a few hundred meters of palisade fencing will look like good value against bills from a solicitor and barrister and a judgement for payment of damages from the court.

MacDanger

Spreading slurry in the field is the best option, it'll have some beneficial effect on the land and will keep trespassers out. Obviously there's a cost to it but other than that, very little downside for the OP

JustJoe7240

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118883435#Comment_118883435

This entire post is speculation. Could you direct me to the legal requirement to practice the "basic principals of protection" you're referring to? Noone will end up in court, The op has public liability. This is just scaremongering.

CreadanLady

With pleasure.....

Schedule 3 of the Act details the General Principles of Prevention. These can apply to any enterprise, including farms.

Basically, in order of priority, they can be summaries as...

1. Eliminate risks at source (use AI rather than having a bull)
2. Reduce unavoidable risk (if you must have a bulls, place in a field farthest away from where people might regularly be, well away from road)
3. Inform (put up signs, warnings etc)
4. Control (very strong fences, physically prevent access to trespassers, eg, palidade fencing, keep the bull in a shed or secure yard etc.)

Now, if you just lob a bull or a few bulls into a field near a housing estate, when you had other more remote fields, you will have a hard time defending that decision.

And when the HSA take cases against businesses, very often a lot of it boils down to them showing that the accused failed to live up to their obligations in regard to those principles.

When you look at the cases, the vast majority of those brought up have pleaded guilty. The chances are, if you are pulled up on a safety case, you will lose. It is tough legislation. Most times, people just plead guilty and take their scolding.

Donald Trump

Duty of care towards trespassers is higher under the common law since a famous case in the 70's when a child lost an arm (I think) at an ESB substation.

This was somewhat fixed by the 1995 Occupiers liability act but that does not cover all scenarios. A person classed as "recreational user" would probably be somewhat similar in the circumstances, although if ramps etc. are constructed and left there for a while, the owner might actually become liable for their maintenance.

In relation to the bull suggestions, in general, a scienter action may be taken in respect of a domesticated animal where they can prove you knew it was a dangerous animal. How that would pan out might depend on signage and warnings etc.

JustJoe7240

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118883543#Comment_118883543

Does that act refer to trespassers?

That's an interesting perspective regarding the bulls, Say hypothetically, A bull was in with a herd of dairy cows, and the paddock currently being grazed was next to an urban area and someone was injured. Would that still apply?

tjhook

It seems to me that when a member of the public has an accident, the person/organisation with insurance tends to be the one to pay for it. Whether that's public policy or not, it's how those things appear to me to be resolved

OP, if I was you I'd make sure to complain to the Gardai a number of times, and take note of when and to who. If there was ever to be trouble, that may work in your favour. It won't do you any harm anyway, and it's free. Same for putting up signage. Cheap, and may go in your favour. At the very least, it would show that you were not implicitely allowing people use your land.

I also disagree with purposely creating dangers on the land. Too much risk that somebody will actually get hurt. And it could come back on you.

I also agree with other posters here saying that increasing the fencing is the most straight-forward way to completely stop the trespassing. But I can imagine it would be expensive.