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2% max rental increase allowed inflation 7% plus

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭The Student


    Is that not the definition of a business venture?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,096 ✭✭✭chicorytip


    Where apartment complexes are concerned management fees have increased by as much as fifty per cent due to rises in the cost of block insurance.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,382 ✭✭✭✭greendom


    I hear this a lot, is there any statistical proof to back it up. I can see that the rental market is a crazy one at the moment but what is driving that? Is it really landlords departing the market?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,624 ✭✭✭Fol20


    There is proof in the following link. 20k have left minimum. The amount is more than likely greater than this due to fudging the number with housing bodies, vulture funds increasing and RTB registrations increasing with every extra bit of legislation. You would think that the government would want more of them to stay around with whats happening but nope, every new legislation is causing more to leave. I read an article where the amount of ll leaving weekly has been at its highest this year and last with around 60 leaving on a weekly basis.





  • Registered Users Posts: 3,624 ✭✭✭Fol20


    What do you think will happen if the government are pushing all the private ll out of the market??

    If you have 100 properties to rent and 100 people looking to rent today and in 5 years, you have 70 properties to rent and 100people, what do you think will happen to the prices. if you think prices will remain the same, dont bother even replying..

    In the real world, if you actually knew how it worked, you would know that the yields on property are decreasing given the very expensive capital costs incurred - Its an investment and if you can get the same yield elsewhere with less risk and work, why invest in property in ireland?

    For the most part, it is not profitable until the debt is paid off. Until then, if your lucky, you might be break even in cashflow while you will have a fully unencumbered property in 30 years. if you think its acceptable to use your own PAYE and take on substantial risk for 30 years. then you clearly dont understand investing.

    Taxation in Ireland takes 52pc of any profit that is incurred so if your paying 20k in rent to your "grubby" landlord, over 10k goes to the tax mans.

    Please familiarise yourself with how the real world operates before spewing absolute emotive statements and explain how LL are extorting outrageous profits



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,128 ✭✭✭Fattybojangles


    It's truly amazing that being a landlord is such a hardship with no profit for the poor souls involved that there are still 298,000 of them? It must just be their sheer selflessness and sense of civic duty that keeps them at it?



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,556 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    Did a landlord run over your dog or something?



  • Registered Users Posts: 126 ✭✭ggmat799


    Because they made windfall profits. A 2 bed bought in 2019 at Leapordstown at 385 was sold at 502K in auction.

    Rent increase for multiple years was higher than inflation. Additionally, Property has a Capital Gain aspect as well. How can you link it to short term inflation anyways. Exit now, if vision is for short term.



  • Registered Users Posts: 126 ✭✭ggmat799


    Agreed. Moment of silence. Rents Increase was greater than Inflation for years. I'm sure no rents were increased for larger good of tenants.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,128 ✭✭✭Fattybojangles


    No I dislike Dogs more than Landlords only a pity you can't run over both but I'm just sick to the back teeth of the whinging and crying of landlords constantly its just so disingenuous if being a landlord is so terrible and there's so little profit in it why do so many do it? Now as far as I can see there are only 2 possible answers they are either all morons who love being in a difficult loss making business or they're actually raking it in and for some reason insist on pretending to be the victim of the gubbermint.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 34,556 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    Ignoring your utterly sociopathic opening line...

    Some people are landlords because they are stuck in negative equity and are renting out their home through no choice of their own, they need the income to cover the mortgage.

    Some people are landlords because they have a mortgage on a buy to let property which might be feeding into their primary residence.

    Some people are landlords purely as a business.

    It's not just a load of fat cats sitting in a room, wearing monocle and smoking cigars, there are endless reasons people are landlords.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,188 ✭✭✭Fian


    If rent increases are capped below the % appreciation value of the property yields decrease over time. Once the yield drops too low it makes economic sense for the landlord to serve a notice of termination and sell the property, so they can reinvest the proceeds in a higher yielding investment elsewhere.


    There's no "poor me" in that - it is inexorable logic. If a landlord can get a higher yield elsewhere for less risk it is just rational to move the investment. Ofc the appreciation in value of the property is itself a form of yield, which does complicate matters and on top of that the rent restrictions are dampening the increase in value of investment property, but in the long run if the pool of money/value you have tied up in the investment (i.e. the amount you could get if you sold) has outstripped the increase in rent year after year, you reach a tipping point where it makes more sense to exit the investment and reinvest elsewhere at a higher return.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭Amadan Dubh


    I think rent increases tied to the ecb rate, like with mortgage rates, is how it should be done.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,128 ✭✭✭Fattybojangles


    Ah the old accidental landlord sob story I was wondering how long that would take. Did anyone force these people to become landlords? Did anyone force them to have a mortgage on a buy to let property? No they didn't the vast majority are in it for the profit and there's plenty of that to be made can we please just stop pretending otherwise?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭Amadan Dubh


    Maybe the landlord's dog ran over him?

    With small landlords being driven out of the market, the vast majority stakeholders (i.e. tenants, individual (not corporate) landlords, agents, cleaning companies, banks etc.) are suffering as a result. The proles fighting among themselves (i.e. tenants and small landlords) is exactly what the big guys want to see. But they need to take a step back and realise that the market isn't working for them, but instead it is working for some small stakeholders and they are the ones who should be attacked. And for clarity, the REITs are not the problem here but the other institutional investors are (e.g. Kennedy Wilson, Greystar, Round Hill etc.). REITs require cash so can't afford to hold places empty whereas the other institutionals are happy to leave brand new places empty for years (e.g. Capital Dock).

    There's less than 500 ads for rentals in Dublin city today on Daft and I see a jobs announcement of 1,000 at a new campus of Workday in Grangegorman. Quite simply, for me, these jobs won't see the light of day with the state of our housing market and that is where very quickly the economy will unwind; a few companies going remote for the long term did not seem to give the government a wake up call so it is going to take several employers now cancelling plans to hire in Ireland before the government take the housing crisis seriously (at which point it will be too late as the jobs will already be lost).




  • Registered Users Posts: 298 ✭✭Jmc25


    Rental price inflation has been running significantly ahead of general inflation for quite some time so I suppose, like most people who aren't landlords, my sympathy would be limited.

    At the same time, it is clear that government policy is for small landlords to exit the market and be replaced by institutional investors. In my eyes, that's a policy decision with both pros and cons but I can see how it might rub landlords up the wrong way.

    Still though, being able to cash out at near historic highs in terms of property prices must soften the blow a bit no?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭Economics101


    Sorry, but that makes little sense: for the past several years the ECB rate was practically zero or negative. What does that say about how rents should change from year to year?



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,556 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    If someone had a mortgage on a house which went into negative equity and they lost their job, then yes, they could potentially be forced to become a landlord to keep up the repayments.

    I'm a landlord myself as I use my rental income to cover a percentage of the mortgage on my primary residence. (the rented accommodation I own outright)

    I don't make 'massive profits', but it does benefit me greatly. Still pay 40% of the rental income back to the taxman mind you.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,772 ✭✭✭ballyharpat


    So this person did not make their profit as a landlord, maybe they bought it as a speculative investment, if it was an auction, they either had cash or access to a lot of credit. they made 25% in about 3 years, so, how much would they have made in the stock market?


    What is your point exactly?


    Why is it ok for every other investment or business to make money, but if a landlord does it, they are greedy?


    If they sell the property at a loss, should the general public help them out?



  • Registered Users Posts: 352 ✭✭Snugbugrug28


    For me it's a question of degree. It's a very different business than say car manufacturing.

    I don't like the landlord game especially the whole business about purchasing a house with debt so that you can enjoy a tax break on mortgage interest.



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  • Posts: 1,344 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I have 2 houses rented long term............great tenants........never a bother ( I've been lucky I KNOW that ).....both house have been rented @about 20% UNDER the 'going' rate last few years......that doesn't bother me....like I say good tenants & I'm kicking 52% back to the government in any case & the 'assets' were gaining value simultaneously so basically everyone in the equation was happy......tennants / revenue & myself.

    Now, both tenants have notified me they'll both ( coincendentally) be moving on after the Summer.... I wish em all the best & say let me know when you have a more definite date............ now, neither properties are mortgaged & when the tenant are gone it'll be straight up with the " FOR SALE" signs. I've been blessed with tenant but there's no way I'll stay in the 'll 'game' ..... it's a nonsense game to be at nowdays..... my tenants are pleasant people but overall, it's a hassle



  • Registered Users Posts: 686 ✭✭✭houseyhouse


    Interest is tax deductible on all business loans



  • Registered Users Posts: 686 ✭✭✭houseyhouse


    I’m an ‘accidental landlord’. We needed to move out of our tiny apartment because we had kids and there was not enough space for us all. We literally couldn’t have afforded to pay back the mortgage if we sold it. What other choice did we have? Default? Borrow from friends and family? Raise our family in unsuitable accommodation? There were no good options.

    We’ve been lucky in the long run and I wouldn’t ever claim otherwise but there were times we went into debt to maintain that apartment. Saying that we ‘chose to become landlords’ ignores the context those decisions were made in.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    Just Two possible situations for all landlords. Morons or raking it in. What are the Two categories of tenants ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭The Student


    Every business purchases machinery, equipment with debt. That's exactly how a business operates.

    A landlord is a business person pure and simple. Why is a landlord any different to a shopkeeper, a publican, a petrol station or any other business?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭Amadan Dubh


    Mortgage rates would not have moved by much in these years too. It makes perfect sense as the assumption would be the property is subject to a mortgage and therefore the cost of the mortgage is not increasing so why should the rent? Imagine mortgage repayments got more expensive to the tune of 4% per year, it wouldn't be very sustainable.

    For clarity, I'm talking about existing leases not being subject to increases unless the mortgage rates are increasing. So for new leases, they can be set at whatever the landlord wants (in this world, there are no RPZs).



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,921 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Why do tenants need to be molly coddled to make their lives easier?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Estate management fees (these include tenants bins, landscaping, etc) are going up, quite apart from repairs, replacement furniture etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,773 ✭✭✭Grumpypants


    Landlords use electricity, oil, petrol, they eat food. They are all going up.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭Economics101


    But that puts a big wedge between old leases and new ones. The new ones reflect the scarcity of rental properties and the old ones are insulated from it. Fine for existing tenants, but distortions such as this will cause problems. And for rented properties which are debt=free as far as landlords are concerned, it's all the other costs which are important, not the cost of mortgage finance.



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