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Day/Night or Smart Meter?

  • 01-04-2022 3:06pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,542 ✭✭✭


    I was thinking of changing my meter to reduce electric bills. Currently on standard plan with Electric Ireland about two months now.

    We are saving for a solar pv system.

    Which meter would be best?



Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,743 ✭✭✭yankinlk




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,542 ✭✭✭Ginger83




  • Registered Users Posts: 45 fluffykre


    The Government is looking at the possibility of using "time of day pricing" for electricity in an effort to address spiraling energy costs.



    "Minister Ryan said he will meet energy providers again and ask them to consider putting all customers on the beneficial package that new customers get."

    Based on the present smart tarrifs the smart meter is more there to benift the energy supplier rather then the customer. Once you move to a Smart meter you cant go back to the non-smart meter. So at this time sticking with the non-smart would be a good idea until some really good smart tarrifs come out. The non-smart meter also gives you access to the traditional day/night tariffs which many like due to the low night rate


    The above article is a bit shocking imagine they decide to place everyone with a smart meter on a time of use tariff. 50 cent per unit at dinner time :)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.


    Will they not force everyone onto the smart meters or what's the crack there

    would you have to get day/nite now to stay on it



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,565 ✭✭✭bullit_dodger


    Yankinkl wasn't being smart or cheeky there with "day/night ... end thread", sadly he's on the money. The is a whole thread about it you can read.


    Note this thread was from a few months back, so (maybe) the landscape has changed since and the suppliers have introduced a few smart meter tariffs which are competitive, but from what I understand of the market, any smart tariffs are either outrageous day time prices, or the standing charges are massive.

    I'm sure (or at least hopeful) that they will come up with competitive tariffs for solar households over time, but the level of obfuscation that exists in this space is ridiculous. Respect to bonkers.ie for being able to work out the math, higher standing charges in one place, offset by 2% reduction in email billing, verses "cash back", verses lower night rate with higher peak rate. etc etc Seriously, the regulator should do something there, it's nonsense.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,542 ✭✭✭Ginger83


    Are day and night meters still available or will they try to push a smart meter?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,542 ✭✭✭Ginger83


    I got one ordered after twenty minutes on hold. Day rate increases by 1c but night rate much cheaper.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,522 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    I'm not going to hold my breath on better and more attractive rates on smart meters, the only direction I see coming is higher rates at peak periods, and our gombeen green minister is encouraging that nightmare scenario, in the misguided thought that the energy providers out of the goodness of their hearts will offer better rates to families that are under pressure.

    I can see it now, more and more people unable to provide hot meals for their families at "peak periods" because the special rates are too high to be affordable, so meals will end up being moved to stupid times of the day or night in order to avoid the peaks. Who the hell does he think he's fooling?

    In the same vein, I can see a situation where people who can actually help reduce generating demand by feeding solar power back into the grid will end up paying a higher standing charge to recompense those same suppliers for the loss of sales of their overpriced products, or there will be punitive standing charges if you don't take more than a certain number of high rate "day" units, for the same reasons, they have to justify their existence.

    I won't be at all surprised to see a massive acceleration in the move away from gas, let alone oil, there's already been hints of a time when even a gas hob will not be allowed, so everything will be electric. There had better be some very robust plans in place to make very sure that they don't end up killing people as a result of no cooking, no heating, no hot water and no light, and no way to make a call to emergency services because the mobile networks and the land lines are all out of action because there's no power, the latest incarnation of land lines don't use copper, they use fibre, through the broadband router, which needs power in the house to transmit the signal. You may be very sure that our wonderful gombeens in power haven't even begun to look at the implications of an all electric future, let alone plan for how to make sure that life is safe in this brave new world that they're rushing us all headlong in to.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,542 ✭✭✭Ginger83


    We hope to gather enough funds to install solar pv to reduce our dependency on the grid.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,522 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    So am I, but it's not easy when you're on a fixed income. As for where all this is going, I'm not sure I want to think about it too much, it's depressing!

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,542 ✭✭✭Ginger83


    I know what you mean. We could put in a small system now but not sure if it's the right thing to do or continue saving for a more suitable system.

    Energy prices are only going one way.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,542 ✭✭✭Ginger83


    Good news. Esb came out today and said the meter we have is a day/night meter so it only took two minutes to setup.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,055 ✭✭✭OmegaRed


    New build here and came with a smart meter installed. Wanted to move to Day/Night and after some back and forth and confusion with Electric Ireland, the ESB were out last friday and within 15 minutes I had my new digital day / night meter installed. PHEV, washing machine, dishwasher, garage dehumidifer all timed and running in the 11pm to 8am slot at a cost of about 10c per KW (going up to almost 13c come May 1st).

    As an example, the 9kw battery on the car could cost €2 to €2.50 to charge during the day. Now its costing just under 1 euro



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,565 ✭✭✭bullit_dodger


    Just in case you don't realize ..... it's actually 12am -> 9am (in summer), but as you correctly noted 11pm -> 8am (in winter)

    I wouldn't like for you to be firing off all your devices at 23:01 thinking that you were on night rate.....when infact you would be paying full whack day rate. You need to get those guys working at 00:01. In fact I set mine a few mins after like 00:05, as the clock on the meter can be out by a min or two.

    The start of washing machines/dishwashers program is where the water gets heated, so that's where the energy intensive bit is and important to get that right.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,055 ✭✭✭OmegaRed


    Good shout. The ESB installer also mentioned that the clock on the day / night meter stay at winter hours also. I didn't question it as I presume its just easier for the above and keeping everything in the 11/8 slot all year round (but is actually 12 to 9 in summer time as you mentioned)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,743 ✭✭✭yankinlk


    I knew there was something dodgy about this. Noticed the clock on the meter was an hour off this morning.

    Are we certain that they offset the times based on the meter - or do they correct them - and is it up to each provider to decide? EDIT Found it: https://www.electricireland.ie/news/article/all-you-need-to-know-about-the-nightsaver-meter

    Glad i read this thread! I was off by an hour in the morning with my night rate charging. Was hoping to be done charging by now but the forecast this week meant im back charging again.



  • Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭adrianglass


    Interested to come across this thread....

    We recently had our meter 'upgraded' to a smart meter (didn't really have a choice!) - and we're looking at solar pv on the roof, with a battery.

    Both of the solar pv companies said 'you ought to be on a day/night meter - but, after an hour or so on the BordGais website, I'm still none the wiser.

    Even phoned them, and the nice lady on the phone was as clueless as me....


    So - are the 'smart' plans not really worth the effort of setting them up, in terms of cost savings?

    Annoyingly - the BordGais website showed be 15 - 20 possible plans, half of which (the cheapest ones) were only available to new customers..

    Thanks

    Adrian



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,743 ✭✭✭yankinlk


    well - for a start - just browsing the BG site... they are atrocious for Night Rate (and day rate as well!) Why not pay bonkers a visit and see how the rank them. Unfortunately u really need to dig into the PDFs of each provider to get the actual numbers of standing charge and unit rates. bonkers helps a bit.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,565 ✭✭✭bullit_dodger


    Nahh, all the day/night meters are like that mate. Basically, they use UTC timezone under the hood, which is GMT (in winter time), but when we move to BST (British summer time).....that's actually GMT + 1.

    Personally I just set my battery to charge at 00:05 -> 07:45, it's nearly 8 hrs and with that I can have it charge at 1kwhr per hour (0.3C) and be completely full and I never have to adjust the time if it's winter/summer as that's always nighttime regardless.

    There is also a "nerdy reason". If you look at the energy report for a day, say at 7pm.....those daily reports are usually 00:00-23:59. So if you did charge in winter from say 23:05...when you looked the following day, the battery might say

    Charged 7Kwhr

    Discharged 8.1Kwhr

    which seems "odd". How could you discharge more than you charge, but of course some of the charging I put into the battery was from the previous day (if you follow me) but it doesn't "balance" out until you look at the full day. I know.....I'm a nerd :-)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,743 ✭✭✭yankinlk


    I did move to after midnight to follow your advice before. But I don't like the idea of finishing charge an hour early... and having the battery drain for an hour during night rate.

    But it's not a problem for much longer hopefully!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,565 ✭✭✭bullit_dodger


    Ohh yeah, I remember that now. Sorry man - hard to keep track. It does seem "odd" that you can't set charge/discharge times and have to feck about with charge rates and guess the times that it will finish. Is that really the only way?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,542 ✭✭✭Ginger83


    It's surprising what power you could use at night. Last night 2 washes of clothes, 2 dishwasher cycles, a bit of tumble drying and a shower used 9 units.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,055 ✭✭✭OmegaRed


    Indeed. i charged the PHEV 50%, had the dishwasher, dryer and washing machine going as well as the dehumidifier in the garage on full pet and used up nearly 13kw. All that cost me about €1.30



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭SD_DRACULA


    Anyone here know if anyone actually managed to get rid of the pointless "smart" meter and go to a day/night one?



  • Registered Users Posts: 85 ✭✭HandsomeRover


    Is it true that you will only be able to 'sell' to the grid with a smart meter?

    Do 'they' need your permission (signature) to swap out your existing meter for one of these?

    I live rurally and privately, would not like to be surprised by a meter change without having the opportunity to refuse.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,743 ✭✭✭yankinlk


    I asked to replace my 24hour meter for a day night one when I got PV installed. When they arrived they had to ask to power down my house for 15 mins. I was in a meeting for work so they waited, but nearly missed them.... but if I wasn't home I don't know they might have flipped the switch anyway.

    I put a note on my day night meter asking "please no smart meter here"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,256 ✭✭✭Ubbquittious


    What is going to happen with Eamonn Ryan's mandatory time of day pricing? The cynic in me thinks everyone forced onto sh1tty smart meter tariff with no feed-in.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭SD_DRACULA


    Sort of hope that happens now, maybe if everyone is on them some decent tariffs will pop up 🤞

    Right now day/night meter = tracker mortgage.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,522 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    The cynic in me say that Ryan and his cohorts are meeting in private and rubbing their hands in glee at the combined fortune of extra tax take for the government to fund their agenda, and the problems with "dirty" energy focussing attention on moving away as fast as possible, they must be loving every moment.

    As for reality, I hope it comes home to destroy them next election, their supposed "green" agenda is little more than a thinly disguised "privelege" agenda of looking after their friends and making sure that their own nests are well feathered. The SEAI scheme is loaded towards the one stop shop, and if you can't afford that, or have already spent money on parts of that option, the other options offer almost nothing that will help the most hard pressed.

    Contempt doesn't even come close to how I regard the Greens, I'd love to slap that self satisfied grin of Ryan's face, I was utterly amazed when he stood up the other day and said that multiple tariffs for electricity would be a good thing for the most hard pressed, when the opposite will be the harsh reality for many families, the thought of parents having to tell children, "sorry, you'll have to wait for your meal, it's too expensive to cook it now" only makes me even more determined to expose the Greens for the misguided morons that they are.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,136 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Is it true that you will only be able to 'sell' to the grid with a smart meter?

    Yes, thats how it is being setup but there is an interim period where you go on an "estimated export" until you get the smart meter. The FiT will be worth <€100/yr for most people and the smart meter tariffs will cost you more than that (relative to a day/night rate) so its pointless signing up for FiT unless you are already stuck on a smart tariff.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,565 ✭✭✭bullit_dodger


    I think you give them too much credit. You're assuming a grand nefarious plan. This is probably misguided. I wouldn't attribute to malice something that could equally be attributed to just them being morons.

    Really, the rollout of smart meters has just been a poor sales pitch so far. The idea is sound. The expectation (which has borne out in the UK) is that smart meters will approx curb the peak usage of the country by 4-5%. If this means that we don't have to build another power station as a result, that's not a bad thing. Right? Should force people to move the washing machine and the dishwasher to "off peak" times, where hopefully we can cover that load by renewables.

    Where it's failed so far is any supplier coming up with an advantageous plan over the others. This is probably deliberate down to the fact that if they did, you'd have people climbing over each other to get onto that plan which needs a smart meter. ESB networks have some 2.2-2.3 million meters to replace. Even replacing 2,500 meters a day (which sounds like a lot right?) with 5 working days a week, that's like a ~5 years project. They don't want the headache of a MASSIVE surge in demand for them if it was price advantageous. You can imagine old Misses Noggin's phoning up Joe Duffy rambling on about how she's been waiting months to get this new fangled smart meter installed which will save her a fiver a month on the bill. Nahh, they don't need the headache.

    Once the meters are mostly generally installed, I think we'll see more competitive offerings.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,743 ✭✭✭yankinlk


    CAPTAIN OBVIOUS POST: It makes sense then for boardsies to proactively change to a Day/Night meter now... which gives you the ability to shift loads to night rate - without the extra costs of the smart meter tariff.

    It costs you nothing - and will save you monies! It also has the add-on benefit of pushing you DOWN the list of houses targeted for meter upgrade (this is an assumption based on others feedback here).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,250 ✭✭✭Mav11


    It costs you nothing

    The Standing charge on the Day/Night tariff is higher than that of the 24hr tariff. About €75 p/a I think.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,522 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    We're already on day/night, and have a relatively new "electronic" meter, the version before the smart meters, as the old dial 3 phase unit we had here went faulty a while back, so it had to be replaced. It's in the garage, so a pain to read, but as it's recent, and we're 3 phase, it will hopefully be a long way down the list, but that might become an issue if we want to get a feed in tariff activated for Solar. No easy way forward with this stuff. We've been day/night for years, and try to do the "heavy" loads for things like washing machines during the night period, though in recent years, the reduction in washing temperatures has made a signifciant difference to the power required. The heavier load during the winter is the drier, as that still uses significant power.

    Take the point about the project to get the smart meters in, my concern will be the hit that poorest families will take as a result of using power to cook at peak times, with no alternatives to using electric, and I won't get started on what we're supposed to do in the event of wide area power cuts due to weather or the like, a house without solar including batteries is going to be a very unfriendly place in a few years time when oil and gas are no longer deemed "acceptable" usage, and there's no open fires any more. We had it 50 years ago in the UK when the miners and the Government crossed swords, and the power was off on a rolling basis for 16 hours a day for a number of weeks. It wasn't fun being all electric then, and it's still not fun now, and wil be even worse if we get things like electric vehicles that can't be charged, and IP phones that work on the broad band rather than copper cables, even things like a 999 call could be a problem if there's a wide area out of action, as the planning for those sorts of scenarios seems to be lacking, and there's no real awareness at political levels of the risks of such a scenario.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,565 ✭✭✭bullit_dodger


    By the way, I wasn't having a go at you Steve. All fair points you make, and I'm old enough to remember Arthur Scarrgil :-) One would hope that even for the lower income families that moving their washing and dishwasher to non-peak times will help offset that increase in peak rate tariff. In an ideal world, the introduction of smart meters would mean that people would pay EXACTLY as they did before the introduction, but with the benefit that they moved their loads to "greener times".

    In reality it's "unlikely" to work for every person that way. When we move models like this, there will always be winners and losers (on the customer side). They may be classified as "edge-cases" .... but they are real people all the same. Some people who today don't have a night rate tariff will invariably win as they adopt "load shedding" their washing/etc for the 1st time. Moving to a cheaper time over what they do today which is paying the day rate? So the introduction of smart meters will raise visibility to this. In truth, people could have done load shedding for decades as you know, but not many people actually do it.

    I've no evidence to back this other than gut feeling but for most people on this forum (myself included) who're already on day/night, I think we'll break even or lose slightly with smart meters, once the "competitive tariffs" come in.....but we're the minority.

    Aside: You might want to have a look at some of the new dryers. They use a heat pump in them. Samsung's one I was looking at myself 800watts, over the more traditional 2Kw. Not cheap mind you, but a solid enough brand and depending on how much you have, could pay for itself in 3-4 winters.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,743 ✭✭✭yankinlk


    i meant swapping out the meter is free. i didnt mean the standing charge. there is a higher standing charge no matter what meter you move to correct?

    My strategy of moving to Night Rate (plus PV added) has reduced my bills 75% so far - but i havent got to summer time yet. :)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,588 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    That's really no different to today. A house heated by oil or gas needs electricity to fire and run its pumps so without power there is no heating. Even a solid fuel boiler needs electricity to run.

    To be honest, the tone of your posts makes you sound like you just don't like the energy transition and have come up with spurious arguments and green boogeymen to oppose it.

    Like it or not, the transition is happening and it will be accelerated by geopolitics. It should be no surprise either rich or poor since we've been talking about it for the guts of 20 years.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,522 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    Well aware of the issues of no electricity, which is why I have no intention of parting with a standby generator that I used to have for a computer that was in a dedicated area of the garage. The generator is paid for now, and runs on green diesel or similar, so not a massive expense to keep, and it's the difference between having heat, light etc, or having very little. Whatever about a short duration power cut, we've seen some significant outages over the last few years, and I don't see it getting any better any time soon, unless the ESB find ways of weather proofing the distribution network.

    I'm not against change, what I'm not happy about is the total absence of awareness from more than just the Green party of the real implications of some of the changes that they're not even thinking about, but are nodding through. I'm also considerably underwhelmed by the sorts of costs that are being revealed to make the change, and the SEAI schemes are not particularly user friendly. The one stop shops for the select few that can afford them will do very well, but the average home owner hasn't a hope of funding the sorts of costs that are being thrown around, and the implications for pensioners who had most or all of their hard earned reserves wiped out by the crash 10 years ago, that's another story altogether that I won't go into here. A pensioner on a fixed income doesn't have a hope in hell of paying 40 or 50 K to upgrade their home to keep their heating bills within a manageable (but still higher than they have been) level, and that's the sorts of figures that are being quoted for a house that's relatively young, and for many pensioners, downsizing is not an option because the smaller homes that they would be looking to move to are being snapped up by first time buyers with mortgages approved, and fetching astronomic prices because of the shortage of ANY new homes that are affordable, and depending on the age of those properties, they still may not be easily upgraded. In addition, if their own property has not been upgraded, the price they can get for it will be depressed because of the costs of the work to be done, and the time involved, which is deterring people from buying older properties as a result.

    There are people who have been talking about change for a lot longer than 20 years, but there have also been a lot of vested interests that were equally determined that change wasn't going to happen and make their particular interest no longer viable, and those vested interests had the money to buy influence with politicians for a very long time, with the results that we've all seen.

    The motor trade was a prime example, and bluntly, the construction industry hasn't exactly exerted itself in coming forward with energy saving ideas, the vast majority of change has been forced upon them rather than them proposing new ideas that would reduce the carbon footprint and ongoing living costs of new construction. I did things here when we moved in 32 years ago that are only now being grant aided to put them in, because they reduce energy usage, and there are still huge numbers of people who don't see the advantages of some of the changes I was aware of and implemented over a quarter of a century ago.

    Make no mistake, some of the problems that are happening as a result of the recent world events are going to cause huge problems for many more people than are saying so at the moment, and unless there are significant changes to a whole range of things, the results are not going to be nice for the future.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



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