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Russia - threadbanned users in OP

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,524 ✭✭✭wassie




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,112 ✭✭✭Blowfish


    Sure, but as Putin keeps telling his people, this is a 'special military operation', not a war. This means Putin can only continue with the annual 'peacetime' conscription, not full a mobilisation draft it would destroy his own narrative. Plus, the Russian people would expect conscripts and reserves to be used only in wartime, not for a 'special military operation'. This is why the Russian government have already said that these 135k conscripts won't be going to Ukraine and why there was already a bit of a backlash/backtrack in Russia when it was discovered that conscripts had ended up in Ukraine early on.

    Now, obviously, this is Putin we are talking about, I'm sure plenty of them will 'accidentally' be sent to Ukraine, but in the general case he does still have to play along to his narrative within Russia itself. I don't see them ending up in mass in Ukraine, more than likely as mentioned, they'll end up replacing troops in Syria/Georgia/Kuril islands etc. so those troops can be brought back to Ukraine.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,151 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,795 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Russia wants its oil paid for in Rubles? Will the West call his bluff?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,151 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe



    Like when Hitler lost Stalingrad, it wasn't a defeat, objectives were complete, they were just focusing on elsewhere.




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 455 ✭✭KieferFan69


    You have to love the Chechens they are hard men. If you painted a model army you would definitely include a unit of these as novelty regiment



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 30,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Gas. Oil flow into Europe has already slowed to a crawl.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,380 ✭✭✭Economics101


    Three little problems:

    1. Oil is priced globally in Dollars. Paying in Rouble involves exchange rate risks, and I am by no means certain if the buyer will bear all this risk.
    2. Ultimately Western importers are exchanging Dollars and Euro for oil and gas. Use of the Rouble is just adding an extra intermediate transaction cost.
    3. If Vlad keeps the receipts in Roubles, then he is making a pretty stupid decision. But sooner or later he will have to sell much of the Roubles, this will depreciate the currency and essentially reverse any Rouble appreciation caused by Western purchases of Roubles at the start of the process.

    I'm a little baffled why people don't see this. Don't let Vlad turn a pretty pointless move into a big issue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,919 ✭✭✭ronivek


    The issue with being "dug in" is that they literally have to dig. As in dig up dust, soil, and dirt which contains radioactive particles. And if they don't have decent respirators they're breathing in and swallowing those particles.

    Also all of the workers in Chernobyl will be wearing dosimeters which tell them exactly what their exposure has been and they rotate as appropriate to ensure their daily/weekly/monthly/yearly limits are kept within "safe" levels. I would suspect the Russian troops won't have any of that.

    Added to that the fact the plant and its surrounds have been largely cleaned up; but random areas of the countryside have not been. There are plenty of notorious spots which are highly radioactive and it's not clear if the Russian soldiers would have been told about any of that; or if told would have actually taken the right precautions.

    Which all assumes they have actually been digging in as opposed to just occupying parts of the plant which are relatively safe; since they're relatively far behind the front lines.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 30,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Russian soldiers are not getting acute radiation poisoning from digging trenches or whatever they were up to. At worst they are facing a heightened lifetime risk of cancer but there is nothing outside the actual melted core at this stage that is going to contribute that level of radiation. I don't know what the background of the story is, but its almost certainly not true.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,652 ✭✭✭brickster69


    But, but, but the rouble is rubble

    rouble.jpg


    "if you get on the wrong train, get off at the nearest station, the longer it takes you to get off, the more expensive the return trip will be."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,919 ✭✭✭ronivek


    I wasn't claiming they were getting acute radiation poisoning; just pointing out the dangers and mechanisms of radiation exposure to them in the area. There are also cases of chronic radiation poisoning mentioned in some literature; so that's also a possibility although probably not likely.

    More likely is that exposure to cold, poor sanitation, poor nutrition, anxiety and stress of occupying an enemy territory (especially if they're aware it is Chernobyl and potentially dangerous), and so on have taken a toll on morale and general fitness.

    Or it's possible there's no merit to the story whatsoever and they just withdrew to be redeployed somewhere.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 30,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    That is the story floating around the internet (or at least it was this morning). 7 busloads of Russians taken to be treated for acute radiation poisoning.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,331 ✭✭✭deise08




  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,504 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    I know when I was in Chernobyl, the tour guides said the radiation in the ground was sinking at a rate of about 1cm/year - so it'd be about a foot underground now.


    Remember too the entire topsoil of the area was dug up and effectively turned upside-down in 1986 to bury the radiation. It's one of the most contaminated areas in the world.


    I can't find any stats online on radiation levels underground though. They're going to be a lot worse than above ground anyway, and above ground is a no-go zone. But yeah, they almost certainly aren't suffering like the guys who looked into the open core for example, or the firefighters picking up bits of graphtie. And you think of the guys who worked under the plant or who went in to release the water and who are for the most part alive today too.


    A remarkably stupid thing to do all the same.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,919 ✭✭✭ronivek


    A couple of interesting tweets I've come across today. Note that they're both somewhat graphic; so be aware if you click into the images:

    A Russian tank which fell off a bridge and sank early in the war was recovered; seems like the entire crew were trapped under the tank and drowned:

    The Ukraine Armed Forces reportedly tried to conduct an airlift from Mariupol using an Mi-8 helicopter. The images suggest it was a medical evacuation flight containing wounded soldiers from Mariupol; and it was unfortunately brought down along the coast. Really brave mission to undertake by the pilots; I suppose it's easy to claim it was reckless considering Russia has total control of the surrounding area.

    Be aware of clicking through; some of the other photos in the replies are very graphic:




  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 30,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    There will be higher radiation levels further below ground, but absolutely nothing that will give you acute poisoning. I'd be pretty worried about what would happen to me 20 years down the road though. The stuff that would really damage you is all in the reactor core, everything else will have decayed long ago.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,504 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    I don't think it'll have decayed to safe levels - not with that half-life (30 years for the nastier bits; longer for plutonium)


    If they've dug trenches and stayed there a couple of weeks at close quarters to the ground, it's possible some have absorbed enough to get sick. Again, a long way from the scenes in the HBO series of course, and yeah, long-term cancer prospects wouldn't be great.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,919 ✭✭✭ronivek


    Again it probably depends. I don't know that anyone has dug up the Red Forest and determined precisely how much radiation is emitted. So if someone were to say dig a deep trench in the Red Forest and then live in it for a month I expect they mightn't be feeling 100%. There hasn't exactly been a lot of research in the field of digging defensive fortifications in areas of buried radioactive material so who really knows.

    In any case let's give the Russians the benefit of some doubt that they would have prepared the units there sufficiently so as to avoid really silly experiments like that particular one.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,504 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    I'm not sure they've earned that benefit of doubt to be honest!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,380 ✭✭✭Economics101


    RTE reports a new Russian entry ban on prominent EU officials, which also includes the "vast majority" of MEPs. So I presume Wallace and Daly are free to enter. I hope someone gifts them one-way tickets.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,151 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Don't get too excited there. The short term measures to prop it up are not going to work so well over the medium and long term. The banks are still supporting a 20% rate and I'd be curious to see what the situation is for Russia in 6 months to 1 year if the war/sanctions continue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,151 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe



    Interesting piece from a well connected Russian journalist (who has left Russia recently)




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 34,187 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    I do enjoy how a poster on an Irish forum can acutely say these guys who dug trenches into the ground in the zone where the majority of the blow out from Chernobyl fell cannot possibly have radiation sickness.. it's gas people can make these statements with such authority.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭Curious_Case


    The term "half life" is probably the easiest to understand in the entire field of physics. Anyone who doesn't completely understand it's meaning or the fact that different elements exist (some for a very short time), some in various isotope configurations, has no business commenting on the subject.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,132 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Seems the non stop state propaganda and lies about Ukraine may even be starting to cause problems for the regime i.e. they may have overegged the pudding and given themselves no out from the war:

    "But the presidential administration is said to be concerned about how “a possible truce with Ukraine will hit Putin’s [approval] ratings.”

    “The citizens were riled up by propaganda. Suppose a decision is made to stop at the territory of the Donbas. What about the Nazis then? Are we no longer fighting them? This word has been hammered into people so much that I can’t imagine how one can stop in Donbas without losing approval ratings,” one source told Meduza."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,151 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,033 ✭✭✭✭Richard Hillman


    I have been to Chernobyl. The staff/guards get rotated every 2-3 days.

    The area around the plant is generally low on the dosimeter about 10times higher than Kyiv. The dosimeter can go off the scale around some of the wooded areas.

    The red forest is a no go area for the tours and probably workers unless precautions are taken.

    For reference (and it fluctuates day by day) for when I went there

    Radiation in Kyiv was 0.09 (Dublin would probably be similar)

    About 100m from the plant was 0.90.

    I was in a rural house in the woods and it spiked up to 4.5 and we were pulled out.

    There will be areas where it is higher and that you can't go to (that the Russians may have been). And they stayed there for nearly a month. There's a chance they they may have even been drinking water around there too.

    There is a small town in the exclusion zone called Chornobyl, about 10-15km from the plant. Seems like a couple of thousand people living there. It will be interesting to see if they have any reactions.

    It caught me by surprise when the Russian soldiers pulled out of the exclusion zone. It seemed very abrupt. There may be some truth in the rumours.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,626 ✭✭✭Field east




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  • Posts: 192 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Chernobyl was ‘lucky’ in the sense that it’s a highly forested and ecologically active area. So a lot of the radioactive materials that were scattered around were absorbed by plants, fungi and so on and are bound up. There’s also a very active forest floor, constant deposition of leaf debris, the normal life cycle of plants and mosses and so on that would have provided a lot of coverage over the years and taken a lot of loose materials out of the environment.

    The problem is these guys reportedly dug trenches and burned vegetation.

    We are absolutely not outside the danger zone in terms of half-lives of those materials. Two of the most dangerous are close to that but not quite yet and others will be problematic for extremely long periods of time.

    Chernobyl is also quite an unusual site as the entire contents of the reactor were effectively scattered around by a steam explosion and the design of the reactor is quite different to most current types in the sense that it uses a large graphite core as the moderator. Graphite (carbon) is flammable, and when it was exposed to air it reacted with oxygen and burned, that was the main vector for sending contamination into the atmosphere. It’s an unusual incident because the core was fully exposed. Fukushima, in contrast, never exposed the core, had a containment structure and had no flammable graphite involved.

    Closer to the site, it’s very probable that there are all sorts of particles, dusts and so on scattered around that would have simply been ejected by the steam explosion. That could include plutonium, uranium and all sorts of very very nasty stuff.

    It was cleaned up but it certainly wasn’t completely decontaminated, which is why it’s been an exclusion area for decades and will continue to be for a very long time.

    Digging into that soil and spending time sitting in those trenches is very likely an EXTREMELY bad idea.

    From a conflict point of view what shocks me is how they have behaved around this and other nuclear sites. It demonstrates that they have incredibly poor or non existent technical advice. Russia shouldn’t be short of nuclear engineering technical skills. Rosatom is one of the most experienced designers of nuclear power plants in the world, but obviously had absolutely zero input into advising the military.

    Taking those kinds of risks at Chernobyl is just beyond belief and they were using explosives and shells at the active, modern VVER plant at Zaporizhzhia. That didn’t pose much risk from the reactors as they are in multiple layers of containment designed to survive missile strikes, but there are large amounts of spent fuel in ponds and dry storage units on the site that are very vulnerable and could have caused a major incident with serious regional consequences.

    It just shows a total lack of expertise and technical information and probably very poor command structure and discipline.

    We’re clearly looking at a military that’s a long, long way from its peak during the Soviet era.

    It worries me because it’s not very rational or sensible behaviour for a major nuclear power.

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


This discussion has been closed.
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