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Russia - threadbanned users in OP

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    I highly doubt it but I'd be sure the yanks and others have been working on assets in Putin's inner circle so if anything happens it will happen from that direction and it may not be obvious. Putin might slip on his lovely expensive marble tiles or fall out a window or have a stroke....etc etc



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 521 ✭✭✭DontHitTheDitch


    That's what makes his comment 'he cannot stay in power' so bizarre. On the one hand they are refusing to facilitate the transfer of aircraft in case it provokes Putin and on the other hand he seems to be making threats about toppling Putin himself. The White House has been adamant all along that that was not their policy.

    Remember the part in the Godfather where Don Corleone talks about anything happening his son after making a pact: "I'm a superstitious man, and if some unlucky accident should befall Michael - if he is to be shot in the head by a police officer, or be found hung dead in a jail cell... or if he should be struck by a bolt of lightning - then I'm going to blame some of the people in this room; and then I do not forgive."

    What happens now if there is an assassination attempt within his own inner circle? A plane crash or a heart attack or stroke? It would seem a lot more reasonable to conclude the US had taken him out, even if they had absolutely nothing to do with it. Total f**k up by Biden.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,919 ✭✭✭GM228


    What does Russia consider to be a threat of existence though?

    The part that stands out to me is "Medvedev said Russia's nuclear doctrine did not require an adversary to use such weapons first".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,829 ✭✭✭Hoop66


    Not much there really. "Oh no we won't use them...unless..."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,073 ✭✭✭JoChervil


    I am a Pole, so I can tell you that it is a b*****t. No-one "accepts" autocrats. They stay in power because after chaos and change new democratic rules are often too weak and full of mistakes to defend the country against such attempts. And such cronies group using old checked rules and terror stays in power.

    Also the most important things is, that there is a big amount of people in such newly changed countries, who adapt to change slower and need help with it, which is often forgotten. If such people had survival guaranteed, there would be no need for autocrats, which give that protection. Communism guaranteed this: the right for work. It gave enough money to survive. Most people were very poor but they didn't die of famine. Communisim collapsed (or Socialism in Poland), because there was only vinegar on our shelves at shops at the end.

    You don't have far right groups in Ireland because welfare money here is good, so any populist wouldn't be listened here. So maybe it is good solution to pay this price and be free from such risks.

    Usually old people vote for autocrats. Here noncontributory pension is almost the same as contributory pension, so people don't feel like second category citizen, so no-one needs to promise them dignity etc.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,893 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Would the Americans really want Putin gone in such chaotic circumstances, where they could not be sure who or what came after?



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,325 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Certainly, but in both cases it had been building up for a long time and over periods of instablity and change, internally and externally, until the dam finally burst. The Russia of today and the past twenty years since putin ascended the throne has been far more stable and to the average Russian far better than it had been. We quite rightly see a czar and his lords carving up the country and leaving scraps for the "peasants", they see a czar and his lords stabilising the country from the chaos of the 80's and 90's while their lives have gotten better. Like I was saying it's quite a different mindset going on. Certainly among his support base.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,023 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,106 ✭✭✭Christy42



    I mean they are also the only country I can think of that had two successful revolutions in a single year. If you want to be technical you could argue 3 since the communists came to power, held elections, lost and took over by military means again. A large chunk of what spurned on both of these revolutions, or at least gave both of them enough public support was a failed war (WW1). Certainly they may end up with other issues again but that does not mean it will be Putin in charge.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,325 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    I am a Pole, so I can tell you that it is a b*****t.

    Poles are not Russians and Poland has a very different history and cultural narrative. When the Soviet Union collapsed(which Poland herself had quite the hand in) look at the difference and the choices made between your country and your people and Russia and hers. Out of the chaos Russia returned to her old ways, Poland didn't.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 515 ✭✭✭TheTruth89


    There doctrines or word isn't worth the paper it's written on, so it makes no odds this is a state that bombs civilians and steals planes and should be treated as such.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 455 ✭✭KieferFan69


    Sounds like this recent poisoning is contrived but to what end so much us going on behind the scenes



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,023 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 455 ✭✭KieferFan69


    You speak like someone with no knowledge of Russia, I doubt you have been and I doubt you would be able for it. Just because they are white like you you think they are the same, but it is a very singular place, as different as the distinct regions are there is no place like it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,073 ✭✭✭JoChervil


    But we are almost back there with our right wing government destroying our courts and leading us to autocracy (why people don't see it in the West, I don't know). We are still surviving thanks to UE. Russians didn't have such help.

    Look at Ukraine. If Zelensky didn't win last election (and in my opinion his win was partially a result of his show and a big part of people voting for him treated it like voting for Dustin the Turkey in Eurovision at one stage) it would be a Russian puppet there surrendering Ukraine at the spot. And it all be done and dusted now. But as we see, Ukrainians are not like that and are fighting for survival. While, if election went other way, you would sum them up as you summed Russians.

    Russians are the same people as everywhere.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    Or the alternative is it frees up someone in the inner circle to remove him from the board with the safety net that the first suspicion will be directed towards the "hated" Americans and not focussing on someone closer to home.

    I believe that this war is primarily Putin's baby with him gone it opens up the possibility and path for a Russian de-escalation as they can quite clearly state it was all Putin (and some of his close hangers on).

    Also what is your solution leave a tyrant in place who is costing Ukrainians and Russians lives because there maybe something worse in the background? I highly doubt there is something worse than Putin.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,023 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Putin's administration has a long and rich history of poisonings. It's the perfect warning shot to Abramovich (and by extension other oligarchs) not to side with the Ukrainians (which is what he was doing), also a clear message they can be reached anywhere.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 455 ✭✭KieferFan69


    If it’s true we’ll it’s frightening, but also one wonders is this all a little stage managed ( the poisoning). Is there proof (photos) of skin pealing and sore eyes ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,023 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe



    Says the guy who continually fakes being in the warzone and leads a loyalists who shoot into Ukrainian apartment blocks for Tiktok videos



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,893 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    What if there isn't a clear successor straight away? I'd say full-on civil war in the country with the world's biggest nuclear arsenal would give other world leaders a few sleepless nights...



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,062 ✭✭✭✭briany


    I think Dustin the Turkey actually ran for President of Ireland in the 90s, and if you ask me, he wasn't even the biggest turkey of the bunch! hweh hweh hweh hweh hweh



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,336 ✭✭✭obi604




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,034 ✭✭✭jmreire


    I doubt very much if they will waste a Javelin on one of these..but having said that, these Toyotas can handle rough terrain, and move fast when they need to, so I would not dismiss them either, and that machine gun can do damage.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,023 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe



    Ukraine have captured more vehicles/equipment than they've lost in total (749 to 574) - confirmed, Moscow is Ukraines biggest arms supplier



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,325 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    I wrote this in plain english in the post before: "Just as the Russian psyche too often views the West through her lens, we in the West too often tend to view them through ours."

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 111 ✭✭Bombaby1974


    Indeed. More senseless word soup from the orange one.

    Talks a lot. Says SFA!!!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    Is there going to be a full on civil war that's quite a conclusion to jump to. No matter what happens the Nuclear question is always going to be in the background.

    If Putin stays in power he will use nukes as the ballast that allows him push the envelope of International Law attempting to slice off parts of the neighbouring countries?

    Its better to deal with this devil first, if others appear then deal with them as well.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,325 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    But we are almost back there with our right wing government destroying our courts and leading us to autocracy (why people don't see it in the West, I don't know).

    You're near obsessed over the rise of the Right in Poland and fair enough, but the "West" does see it and the EU has noted and complained about it and if it goes too far they'll almost certainly do something about it too. There are checks and balances in place that simply don't exist in Russia.

    We are still surviving thanks to UE. Russians didn't have such help.

    After the USSR fell the West and the EU and western money did engage with Russia. I agree it didn't go far enough and an opportunity was missed, but help was in play. A fair chunk of the average Russian's stability and wealth growth was and is down to Western investments. If the West had sanctioned Russia to thsi degree in 1972 pretty much nobody in Russia would have noticed. They're noticing today.

    Look at Ukraine. If Zelensky didn't win last election (and in my opinion his win was partially a result of his show and a big part of people voting for him treated it like voting for Dustin the Turkey in Eurovision at one stage) it would be a Russian puppet there surrendering Ukraine at the spot. And it all be done and dusted now. But as we see, Ukrainians are not like that and are fighting for survival. While, if election went other way, you would sum them up as you summed Russians.

    No, because as Maidan clearly showed they were up for change and willing to fight and die for it. A small band of mostly young men and women protestors drifted into the square, the government tried to squash their calls for change, but a large proportion of the Ukrainian nation supported the protestors and the crowds screaming and dying for change kept getting bigger and bigger until their president flew off in his helicopter. The type of change hung in the balance and yep the Far Right and neonazis were very much in the frame, but their support has dwindled year on year before and certainly since that revolution. I don't buy the Dustin the Turkey joke vote comparisons at all. IMHO Zelenskyy got in because he, the TV star, Jewish, Russian speaking, comedian represented change for Ukraine like no other candidate. They voted for change. Pretty much noting like that is evident in Russia.

    Russians are the same people as everywhere.

    People are the same, their cultural narratives and how they act upon them can be quite different.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,161 ✭✭✭wassie




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,073 ✭✭✭JoChervil


    So what about 2011-2013 protests in Russia? How they were different to Majdan? And how many Russian activists were killed since then?

    Ah, they didn't protest, they are like sheep deserving their faith....

    You're near obsessed over the rise of the Right in Poland and fair enough,

    Would you call all protesters against Putin back then "obsessed"? They were damn right as the history showed us...



This discussion has been closed.
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