Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

Yes you are right some of the militaries individually are probably (again caution...no expert) better prepared for "war" (I would say, all the ones near/bordering Russia, France, Greece...basically my guess would be the "worried" countries + France). I would question how well they might work together in a big crisis and how quick they would be to get organised for it (without US especially).

With Germany in particular I disagree, effort to rush some small portable weapons to Ukraine has exposed they don't know what they have and/or some weapons they think they have on paper are actually unusable when they are needed in a crisis. That is not very reassuring, but maybe not a big surprise. I think this comes after many years of scandals involving the German military and of course successive US presidents berating them over their low defence expenditures (yes, I know that is partly self interest!).

On Russian actions pre this invasion, you are right EU reaction was weak, but I don't think you can tackle every single case of aggression like it is always boundary or limit testing and potentially presenting an "appeasement" type problem which has to be faced down with the strongest reaction possible. We can only ever know that was what was going on in a given situation in hindsight.

Again, the detail of foreign policy, certainly as regards security & defence incl. response to those earlier actions of Russia you mention is mostly set at the level of member states (and still is despite extraordinary events & EU level coordination of sanctions going on now) and some of them have had very contrasting relationships with Russia. There can be no strong collective EU approach if the member states diverge so much (edit: and EU has no power already given over to it to decide collective actions, as it does in areas like trade).

Well I would have to learn a bit more about the current of opinion in Finland regarding this.

We seem to have enough bridges to be crossing at the moment without overspeculating for now.

Especially as any present Finnish Russian concerns seem to involve aggression from Russia and not the other way round I'd have thought.

One thing I have noticed about Finns is their civil war has left a more lasting scar on their society than is noticeable in Ireland for example. There were/are deep idealogical and class differences in the Finnish case whereas for a great many ordinary combatants in Ireland, choosing a side was influenced greatly by personal loyalty and location.

There are a number of parallels between the Soviet invasion of Finland and the Russian invasion of Ukraine. We don’t know what Putins intention is in Ukraine, fully conquering the territory or destruction til capitulation.

Historians still argue 80 years later whether the Soviets sought to annex Finland or merely create a more easily defended border and increase Soviet territory between the Finnish border and Leningrad.

My recollection of history is that they sided with the Germans, but later regretted it when the Eastern Front began to collapse. Then during the Lapland war, Finland fought the Germans out of the country -

It was an interesting period of history really - The Finns had the moral high ground yet at one stage they were fighting with the Axis - i always viewed it as a marriage of convenience - never saw any real evidence Finland had become fascistic, to say nothing of anything more sinister

Mannerheim was very interesting too - certainly a hero to many Finns - yet some in the west paint him in a darker light - like i said, a marriage of convenience IMHO

Well, according to my Finnish friends ( and I have quite a few) whatever their ( Finish people) differences, they were unanimous in their opposition to the Russian invading their Country, no matter what the Russian plan was, just like the Ukrainians. As to what Putins original plan was, looking more likely everyday now that its not going according to that plan. And he's reduced to levelling Cities that he cannot take and hold. What the final outcome will be, we have to wait and see.

From Militaryland.net

@liamtech where do we go from here?

Unfortunately, chemical weapons and/or large scale destruction of urban areas are most likely.

Excellent analysis of Putin's lies about nazis etc repeated and parroted even on this very thread.

https://euvsdisinfo.eu/why-does-putin-portray-himself-as-the-tamer-of-neo-nazism/

Every time i go to bed i wonder what news i will wake up to RE Kiev and now Mariupol - Its staggering to watch what is going on.

• Mariupol: As i understand they were given an ultimatum. Surrender and lay down arms by 2am and they will be 'allowed' to leave the city. They haven't. Its a horrendous situation for the Ukrainians in this pocket. One can assume they have limited supplies, and can only hold out so long. By continuing to fight they are holding up a large force of Russians, which seems to be the main goal of the Ukrainians. They cannot break out (included map of Mariupol below) given the fact the Russian lines around the city are fortified, and the nearest friendlies are over 60km away (figure from the BBC News station but happy to be corrected if i am mistaken). One could speculate that anything is possible now. Russia has 'offered terms', that have been rejected. They may simply level the city now. The only TACTICAL issue with doing that is the debris. BBC/Sky military analysts have stated that the goal of the Mariupol offensive is to join the Russian Eastern and Southern Fronts. But if you will note, the two fronts are already connected - so one can assume the city does hold some value, perhaps creating a highway between the two fronts. The google map screen shot below shows a road labeled M14 running through the city. I would speculate that is the goal. If they level the city, the road could be useless for a time. Im reminded of the Siege of Bastogne in 1944 (Germans surrounded the city, demanded surrender - could ill afford to just level the city given limited air-force at the time, and the main road through said city was the goal - so leveling it was counter productive)

• The operation in Mariupol could also be seen as a warning to the Ukrainians. If they destroy utterly the city it could signify that they have 'taken the gloves off' (as though they actually had any on to begin with). But the carnage could be seen as a grim diplomatic signal to Kyiv - 'Hold out all you want, we can wait, we will crush you in the end' - This is actually a war OF terror now. Its ghastly to realize this, but with non precision munitions employed, it could be that stark. If Putin sits down with Zelenskyy it could undoubtedly be a talking point. We have flattened Mariupol. We WILL flatten Kyiv and or Kharkov - UNLESS you capitulate to our demands
• The only 'positive thing' i can take from this. Is that the Russians are desperate. They have ground to a halt elsewhere - They may lack the supplies to push on further. Also the rumblings that Belarus will join the war - the Russians NEED HELP. This has not gone according to plan. And with more military support being handed to the Ukrainians, and their willingness to fight - the Russian position (overall) is difficult. They can DEMAND SURRENDER - they may also NEED a surrender.

All just my thoughts - I honestly dont know. Iv never been faint hearted when looking at conflict and carnage but i am finding this difficult to watch - That said i am glued to it. I just hope the Soft Power front intensifies. Russia must be made to pay, if not in blood, then in money and commerce

Which is why Putin wants the country de-nazified.

Well then Putin should have invaded Russia instead given all the neo nazis there, not least in the Wagner groups.

Pointing out such groups in Russia is not whataboutery - because it shows it is merely a pretext not any kind of real reason for the invasion.

This is russian propaganda bait. Nothing more.

Based off this nonsense you posted earlier.... Which is all made up ,bar one part ,

all the individual militias groups were brought into the Ukrainian military forces

Neo-nazi groups were a large factor in the success of the Maidan uprising (larger than their numbers might suggest)

(Not true)

They were consequently incorporated into Ukraines armed forces(kinda true )

They have been used by the Ukrainian government for the more "brutal stuff" including attacks on pro-Russians.(not true)

Clearly only making claims for a wind-up