Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

Brussels Sprout · 04-03-2022 08:07PM

Facebook has been blocked in Russia. Apparently they had suspended a number of pro-Kremlin news outlets accounts for spreading disinformation and this is the reaction.

AMKC · 04-03-2022 08:07PM

I think Putin is doing this because he is just lazy. His country should and could be rich with all its vast resources if they were developed and Putin has has 20+years to do that. Put has he? No he has not. That would take a lot of planning and thinking ahead and hard work. Easier for him to just send his army of on some War and make him feel big tuss making up for his lack of size and manhood.

Sam Russell · 04-03-2022 08:15PM

I heard a description of Putin.

"He is a man of 5 foot 6 who insist on telling everyone he is 5 foot 7."

A description of the 'small man syndrome'. I think Napoleon and a German Corporal suffered from it.

odyssey06 · 04-03-2022 08:23PM

AMKC

Mar 4, 2022

I think Putin is doing this because he is just lazy. His country should and could be rich with all its vast resources if they were developed and Putin has has 20+years to do that. Put has he? No he has not. That would take a lot of planning and thinking ahead and hard work. Easier for him to just send his army of on some War and make him feel big tuss making up for his lack of size and manhood.

It is not laziness - it is about power and control. Russian people might be richer in a free society but Putin and his cronies wouldnt be. Even in Soviet days someone got the best vodka, caviar, wine, summer houses etc... command and control.

A free liberal society with ordinary people deciding how to live and vote terrifies them on some level.

AMKC · 04-03-2022 10:32PM

odyssey06

Mar 4, 2022

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118733189#Comment_118733189
It is not laziness - it is about power and control. Russian people might be richer in a free society but Putin and his cronies wouldnt be. Even in Soviet days someone got the best vodka, caviar, wine, summer houses etc... command and control.
A free liberal society with ordinary people deciding how to live and vote terrifies them on some level.

Awe OK.

AMKC · 04-03-2022 11:01PM

You know what Putin the bast-ard probably thinks he is been clever by invading slowly as he slowly breaks the Ukranians spirits and eventually they will just give in. If he had of went all in and took control of Ukraine quickly he would have had 100s of resistance cells maybe even 1000s and he knows that maybe. Like someone here said before he is just waiting for us here in the west to get bored watching and move 9nto the next thing and then he will go all in. We can not let that happen.

johnnyskeleton · 05-03-2022 12:31AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118732259#Comment_118732259

On 1., it will weaken them economically, but this will only feed into Putins control of Russia. It will not weaken his capacity to wage war if it pushes his country into supporting wars even more.

On 2., the pre invasion "dependence" on Russia didnt stop the EU from condemning Russia, so calling it dependence is an overstatement. The way sanctions are imposed is on a sliding scale, because ultimately cutting all ties with Russia will not work.

Quite the contrary, sanctions, particularly the over the top ban everything Russian type, only hurt the Russian people, who can easily blame "the West" rather than their own government for same and boost Putins domestic control.

Insofar as it may be suggested by some that not talking tough with Russia is appeasement akin to the appeasement of Germany in the 1930s might do well to reflect on what led to and kept Hitler in power in the first place - the economic collapse.

If youre saying that the attempts to engage the Russians by increasing trade hasnt worked, its worth looking to the Russian economic collapse in the late 90s to which the Western powers ignored, and which preceded Putin coming into power on the basis that he would bring stability.

I wouldnt at all share your confidence that the EU can match Russias ability to increase their militaries, and I also dont think such an escalation is a good thing (albeit it has to be done). Sanctions hurt EU economies as well as Russia, and with so many other spending commitments for Western governments, there is an extreme reluctance to pay for it. Then you have to look at the large Russian manufacturing and industrial strength, plus massive resources, and their strengthening ties with China. Russia claims to manufacture heavy modern equipment of comparable quality (citation needed) to the USA, but at half the cost. And their soldiers wages are significantly lower than those of the EU.

I think sanctions are being imposed because the EU has no other palettable option. But I dont think they will discourage Russia in the long term.

At the end of the day, the only response to a military incursion is by a robust military defence. The support to Ukraine is far more important than sanctions.

The other thing that isnt really talked about much is this - for all the talk of this being a Russia v the West narrative, NATO must be secretly delighted with how things are going. They are relevant again, it jolted Germany into meeting its 2% and the Russians are showing that they are not as modernised as they liked to claim, and are now lockded into a forever war which will likely be worse than Iraq and Afghanistan put together.

Goldengirl · 05-03-2022 12:48AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118732312#Comment_118732312

Yes. I have found the same with younger people too, college educated, good jobs but not very discerning about their choices when it comes to accurate sources of information.

Especially as some pf these sources have been contaminated by propaganda and conspiracy theories with no basis in fact.

Not saying all CT is rogue, but some sources fold so easily with a little research its hard to understand how intelligent people can get so roped in.

Christy42 · 05-03-2022 02:00AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118734769#Comment_118734769

Economic hardship got Hitler into power. Prosperity kept him there and prosperity is what has kept Putin in power this long. Economy is what collapsed the ussr and Putin can't keep this up forever without a functioning economy.

He doesn't have North Korea style control over borders and information even if he is giving it a good go. Oligarchs are outside of his control and will want to be able to earn millions and billions. If they can't do it with Putin he will find himself falling out a window. The key is when they lose faith in him. When people realise their only way to have an economy again is if he leaves.

ODriscoll · 05-03-2022 02:14AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118732746#Comment_118732746

You'd never know here sometimes, some want to only know one side of the story

Don't think many people in Ireland consider Yanis Varoufakis working for Moscow or Putin like some of the extremes on here suggest at anyone who to raise alert of the real threat of the extreme far right white nationalists in Ukraine, operating with approval of the government since 2014

@yanisvaroufakis

Hideous war after hideous war, the pattern remains the same...

https://twitter.com/yanisvaroufakis/status/1499350037947727875?cxt=HHwWhoC-3cy64c4pAAAA

https://twitter.com/yanisvaroufakis/status/1499472644781002762

Like him I too think Putin is a bully or a monster, as I do about any wealthy privelleged bully who encourages kids off to go kill strangers in war, whatever their cause.

But apart from the fact Ukraine has had a civil war going on for years, citizens disagree on their identity and loyalty, there is another really dangerous side of this story, no one reasonable should just ignore, not when they are being armed with so much weaponry.

Not just some insignificant typical far right fringe movement seen in most any nation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHhGEiwCHZE

Gatling · 05-03-2022 02:29AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118735107#Comment_118735107

How many threads are you planning to repeat Kremlin propaganda verbatim

Alkers · 05-03-2022 02:32AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118733010#Comment_118733010

We should be doing the opposite, welcoming them with open arms and making those already here welcome to share in disgust at what their state is doing.

It's one part of this Ukraine is doing very well, treating captured russian troops with respect, wishing them no ill will and getting them to question what they are doing

Pussyhands · 05-03-2022 02:39AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118732836#Comment_118732836

You put it down to disinformation, I'd put it down to mistrust in authorative figures. People time and time again see people in power/authority lie to them.

"No the IMF won't be coming in"

"USC is a temporary tax"

"We won't be introducing a vaccine pass"

"We won't go into coalition with Fianna Fail"

"No we won't introduce student fees"

We see cronyism and nepotism on an almost weekly basis from those who are supposed to lead by example. Can anyone be surprised then when people start to question what to believe?

Philipmcnill · 05-03-2022 03:27AM

800.000 refugees are already in Poland. Poland expects 5.000.000 and more in the upcoming weeks. Refugees are located in specially prepared centres. Polish families welcome them in their own homes. They pick up Ukrainian families from railway and bus stations and sometimes from the Polish-Ukrainian border. The Polish government automatically allocates family allowances and a special allowance for each child, which is paid until the age of 18. Not all Russian banks are touched by sanctions and Europe still pay them for Gas and Oil. "Sberbank, Russia's largest lender, and Gazprombank have not been included in the list because they are the main channels for payments for Russian oil and gas, which EU countries are still buying. The two banks are subject to other measures, an EU official said."

Sources:

https://www.unhcr.org/en-ie/news/stories/2022/3/621dd8214/people-across-poland-show-solidarity-refugees-ukraine.html

https://www.politico.eu/article/poland-prepares-refugees-ukraine-war-russia/

https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/russian-banks-out-cold-eu-unveils-swift-sanctions-2022-03-02/

AudreyHepburn · 05-03-2022 10:55AM

I can’t get my head around all those saying that President Zelensky should put down his weapons, stop asking NATO etc for help and instead sit down with Putin and negotiate.

Have we learned nothing from history? Appeasement does not work.

You cannot negotiate with a tyrant.

I understand the Nuclear threat is real and terrifying but we can’t just give Putin what he wants. We can’t give him that kind of power.

johnnyskeleton · 05-03-2022 11:08AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118735682#Comment_118735682

Who exactly, apart from the Russians, are saying that Zelensky should agree to Russia's terms?

When you say "we", who exactly do you mean? Do you mean the Ukrainian people?

AudreyHepburn · 05-03-2022 11:11AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118735721#Comment_118735721

I have seen more and comments on social media and by word of mouth in recent days about how Zelenksy is the one putting his people in danger and how he would do better to try and reason with a mad man than calling for arms and help.

By we I meant the international community who are watching what’s happening and are for some reason worryingly unwilling to even attempt to help.

johnnyskeleton · 05-03-2022 11:14AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118735732#Comment_118735732

Are you suggesting that the international community declare war on Russia?

weisses · 05-03-2022 11:15AM

Wrong thread

AudreyHepburn · 05-03-2022 11:19AM

I don’t want all out war but neither do I think we should be allowed to bury our heads in the sand and leave Ukraine to its fate just because we are afraid.

I’ll say it again; Appeasement doesn’t work and never will.

breezy1985 · 05-03-2022 11:23AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118735765#Comment_118735765

So you think we should go to war or we shouldn't. There is no in between where our heads are above the sand but we are not at war.

AudreyHepburn · 05-03-2022 11:27AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118735783#Comment_118735783

Well I don’t a reason why for instance NATO and/or the UN couldn’t send in weapons and troops to assist.

I just can’t understand why you and others would be apparently happy to let Ukraine be destroyed to keep Putin happy so he won’t push that red button.

johnnyskeleton · 05-03-2022 11:37AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118735765#Comment_118735765

I mean, I'm not having a go at you, but isn't that the problem? We want Russia to retreat from Ukraine in the short term, and to stop invading or threatening to invade other countries in the medium term. But there is very little we can do to stop it, short of military action. And there is no appetite to go to all out war with Russia for Ukraine. Providing defensive man portable weaponry, imposing sanctions and political condemnation are not burying our heads in the sand, but it seems quite likely that eventually Ukraine will fall.

Whether we like it or not, Putin may be forcing his position home regarding a new security arrangement. The best that can be hoped for is that if Ukraine is as costly and difficult for the Russian military as it seems to be, they will be reluctant to get involved in any other wars in the short to medium term. But that is of cold comfort to the people of Ukraine.

I just don't know what realistically can or will be done.

gashi · 05-03-2022 11:44AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118735802#Comment_118735802

Where is NATO now? They invaded Iraq and Libya Non Nato countries? Well they had Oil and Gold on offer. WMD was an excuse.

Russia controls the gas game in the region. Stay put.

Let Ukraine suffer and once Russia is weak, perhaps might enter the game. Until then let them DIE.

johnnyskeleton · 05-03-2022 11:46AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118735802#Comment_118735802

NATO and others are sending weapons. Not the heavy equipment that Ukraine really needs or at least wants, but effective defensive weaponry nonetheless. If NATO troops are sent in, however, it would almost certainly lead to an escalation by Russia. It could possibly be done covertly, by e.g. volunteer organisations like the Russians did in Donbas, but that isn't really in the NATO playbook and would, in any event, be of limited impact because Ukraine don't need more small arms troops they need heavy modern equipment such as anti aircraft batteries, modern jets etc. Those batteries need experienced operators and support, and the jets need pilots. So again it would be back to basically NATO countries actively getting involved in Ukraine.

I don't think anyone is happy about what is happening to Ukraine. I'm not sure what you mean though about people being happy to let Ukraine be destroyed to prevent Putin launching a nuclear strike (or at least I assume that's what you mean). Especially since in your previous posts you were rejecting the apparent suggestion that Ukraine should sue for peace to prevent itself from being destroyed.

schmoo2k · 05-03-2022 12:27PM

Where does Moldova stand in all of this, I notice that their airspace isn't being utilized by Ukraine supporters?

Nody · 05-03-2022 12:33PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118736015#Comment_118736015

Applied for EU membership shortly after the invasion of Ukranie; they know which side of the border they wish to be.

schmoo2k · 05-03-2022 12:35PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118736038#Comment_118736038

Yes I had seen that, just curious that their airspace seems to be closed to the West? Especially since an Odesa -> Transista push may be on the cards?

breezy1985 · 05-03-2022 12:36PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118735802#Comment_118735802

Because sending in troops is going to war. That is literally the definition of going to war

So you want to go to war.

Capt'n Midnight · 05-03-2022 12:37PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118736015#Comment_118736015

Transnistria could be a problem. As it's a Russian recognised bit of Moldova beside Ukraine. The rest of Moldova could in theory reunify with Romania as the lesser of evils.

Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

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