Housing Madness

dxhound2005 · 01-03-2022 01:58PM

I think you are making up this bit from your previous post.

"That's the fact of the matter, and it isn't to do with eu migration policies because the majority of immigrants into the country are non eu"

The last Census was in 2016 when the UK was in the EU. Poland was tops, UK was second, and the only non eu in the top 10 was Brazil at 6. We should have had a Census in 2021, but it was put back to this year. Where are you getting your figures from?

Ray Palmer · 01-03-2022 02:06PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118713672#Comment_118713672

I have asked you one simple question and you didn't answer it. It is not like you have any solid theory here but if you can't deal with even an explanation for your "motive" I think it is you that lack critical analysis

sutrapall · 01-03-2022 02:24PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118713885#Comment_118713885

You are confident enough to quote statistics from a census, yet are apparently oblivious to the yearly reports on migration from the Central STATISTICS Office, where all the numbers are there, where simple subtraction, addition, multiplication and division tell you everything you need to know.

Why would you do that? How could you be ignorant to such a thing? They are rhetorical questions, I don't care for your answers, and there's snowball chances in hell I'm going to get into arguing cherry-picked, probably purposefully miscalculated numbers from you. Obfuscation is the word here.

What I said is true, and regardless, my presentation of this housing crisis as an entirely manufactured "phenomenon" remains most comfortably/uncomfortably coherent and explains the unexplainable. The pieces fit perfectly and that's that.

Again...

It is a simple matter of reasonable deduction.

Motive: money. And so, so much of it. All that money goes into someone's pocket, all that rent money, all that commercial money, all that development money. The most understandable motivation of all time. Not to mention that there is a serious, serious conflict of interest with politicians being personally invested as landlords, and that's what is declared! How many have friends and family "indirectly" involved in property? I bet we'd all be shocked.

Means: it's a government, with the powers of a government, tied indelibly to national and international entities that also love money, from REITs to NGO's. The government can both control the building environment and the regulation environment and immigration environment. What kind of a plank allows more and more people, year after year, into a worsening housing crisis, year after year? Allows the development of unaffordable housing year after year, from exhorbitant "international student accommodation" to luxury builds? Come on. They pull the strings on artificial scarcity of housing AND artificial demand.

Opportunity: "the government" is practically every party involved, opposition or not. There is no opposition, all of them have their fingers in it, and there's plenty of money to go round. They've gotten away with it for 3 years on the trot with zero resistance, so why not 4, and then 5, and so on? Opportunity.

Track record: years upon years upon years. A joke.

That's my proof: deduction.

Anyone who can dismiss all the above as sheer incompetence needs to check reality. An extremely profitable enterprise, readily controlled, with no negative consequence, for nearly a decade on the go...is fecking well NOT incompetence. On the contrary, it's exemplary in the demonstration of efficiently meeting goals.

Akin to the police sitting in the cop shop, not lifting a finger, waiting for a murderer to hand themselves in before they even consider that the dead body with an axe buried in its head is "suspicious", it's just ridiculous.

The motive, means, opportunity and track record are all there. The only incompetence is the general public believing this is a mistake

sutrapall · 01-03-2022 02:29PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118713948#Comment_118713948

Unbelievable!

What is it, exactly, that would satisfy your innate ignorance on accepting perfectly sound, explained, logical surmise? Hm?

Is it a signed confession you're waiting upon?

What will satisfy your denial?

And, counter to that, how can you laughably attempt to attack my position while your side of the argument amounts to four words of hermetically sealed explanation, "they are just thick"?

Like the poster above, consider that all rhetorical as I'm not expecting some fascinating theory to emerge from "they are just thick".

dxhound2005 · 01-03-2022 04:05PM

Mine wasn't a rhetorical question, and you did not treat it as such given that your answer referred to a source of information viz the CSO. But their figures do not bear out your contention that the majority of immigrants are from outside the EU.

I don't accept the method you use to get proof of something, i.e. your own deduction. The real figures are available if you want to see them.

Ray Palmer · 01-03-2022 04:19PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118714165#Comment_118714165

How about you explain who exactly is pocketing the money and how. You say it is all obvious but can you explain how? I would love to know who exactly is in government enriching themselves and how they are using the government policies to do this. You are saying this is the motive and it is a good one just want to know how they are.

I mean you could be silly and say higher rents and they are all landlords. When you and I both know legislation for small landlords have been punitive so that makes no sense and then the fact not many actually own that much rental properties. Even if they don't own it is hard to see that they would be doing so for relatively small amounts of money.

Of course there is always the claim of bribery. Hard to prove but if you just believe in it then it has to be true as it is hard for proof thus they are hiding it well.

So tell us who exactly is making the money and how?

sutrapall · 01-03-2022 04:19PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118714845#Comment_118714845

You quoted census numbers, while ignoring migration numbers, on the question of migration numbers.

Why do you think you deserve a response for such such illegitimacy? You don't.

People are more than free to look at the cso numbers themselves, I encourage it. You obviously don't give a rats arse because you could have done so yourself. You didnt, and that explains your motivation. Education is a good thing in a country so obviously lacking in critical thought.

Of course the real question is which pavlovian stimulus triggered your rush to get in with terrible information. Are you somehow or other personally invested in the property question, or is it the immigration question?

Needless to say (or is it?), people rushing in to defend an obviously corrupt government begs the question "but why?!"

No explanations, no reasoning, no logical sequence, just BS obfuscation to cover up the most blazingly blatant robbery thrust upon the country in a decade, with no sign of comeuppance coming.

So, again, I don't care for your crooked motivations, triggers, or terrible attempts to end up saying nothing at all.

So, once again, in the face of zero argument...

It is a simple matter of reasonable deduction.

Motive: money. And so, so much of it. All that money goes into someone's pocket, all that rent money, all that commercial money, all that development money. The most understandable motivation of all time. Not to mention that there is a serious, serious conflict of interest with politicians being personally invested as landlords, and that's what is declared! How many have friends and family "indirectly" involved in property? I bet we'd all be shocked.

Means: it's a government, with the powers of a government, tied indelibly to national and international entities that also love money, from REITs to NGO's. The government can both control the building environment and the regulation environment and immigration environment. What kind of a plank allows more and more people, year after year, into a worsening housing crisis, year after year? Allows the development of unaffordable housing year after year, from exhorbitant "international student accommodation" to luxury builds? Come on. They pull the strings on artificial scarcity of housing AND artificial demand.

Opportunity: "the government" is practically every party involved, opposition or not. There is no opposition, all of them have their fingers in it, and there's plenty of money to go round. They've gotten away with it for 3 years on the trot with zero resistance, so why not 4, and then 5, and so on? Opportunity.

Track record: years upon years upon years. A joke.

That's my proof: deduction.

Anyone who can dismiss all the above as sheer incompetence needs to check reality. An extremely profitable enterprise, readily controlled, with no negative consequence, for nearly a decade on the go...is fecking well NOT incompetence. On the contrary, it's exemplary in the demonstration of efficiently meeting goals.

Akin to the police sitting in the cop shop, not lifting a finger, waiting for a murderer to hand themselves in before they even consider that the dead body with an axe buried in its head is "suspicious", it's just ridiculous.

The motive, means, opportunity and track record are all there. The only incompetence is the general public believing this is a mistake

dxhound2005 · 01-03-2022 04:22PM

No obfuscation on my part, I gave you clear information.

sutrapall · 01-03-2022 04:24PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118714927#Comment_118714927

Yeah I'll get the bank statements sent over to you today, the phone recordings and if I have time I'll have the culprits come over and personally explain to you.

While I'm at it, I'll get a proof of gravity from God for you, seeing as no doubt logical inference of an apple falling from a tree would be "unbelievable" for you too.

You just sit tight there and wait for reality to hit. Keep batting for the "they are just thick" crowd in the meantime. Suffering jaysus, I've heard better explanations from 6 year olds.

Ray Palmer · 01-03-2022 05:17PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118714950#Comment_118714950

You do get there is a theory of gravity based on observable facts? To me no god exists so the fact you would use a fictional being for proof indicates more about you.

Have you any observable facts for us to believe you? You should be able to name one person if they are all at it and there is so much money involved. If you believe it is true either way without any proof just say it so we know.

sutrapall · 01-03-2022 06:50PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118714940#Comment_118714940

Yes, obfuscation, yes.

You gave census figures in place of migration numbers. A true honest John.

sutrapall · 01-03-2022 06:57PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118715187#Comment_118715187

Observable fact: a promise to reduce housing costs for so many years, versus the concomitant increase of housing costs over those same years, a concomitant increase in immigrants, a concomitant increase in unaffordable, unfit-for purpose housing provision, etcetera etcetera etcetera.

A promising start to construct the logic of sheer corruption.

Now I'm finished with you and your "they are just thick" """"""""theory""""""" and desire for proof of the most self-evident things in life. You have nothing, not a jot of an argument.

c.p.w.g.w · 01-03-2022 07:01PM

My SIL, living in Tipperary put her house up on the market Monday, she has 3 viewings Wednesday, 1 Thursday & 2 Friday...and her agent said they are waiting for a few more to arrange dates and times...her house is a kip as well and it's listed for a realively high price...we are currently waiting on the council to get back to us about our place, they have till Friday and if they can't confirm its going up a daft

sutrapall · 01-03-2022 07:36PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118715691#Comment_118715691

Don't worry, the government and their pals have this desperation in hand.

Quick and lazy perusal...(while also looking at the wording within the new national housing plan, woof, what a load of, ahem, very, very carefully re-worded double-speak)...

Irish times:

"The good news is that supply is set to increase in 2022; the bad news is that it is not enough to meet demand. Housing completions will hit about 21,000 in 2021, with analysts predicting a figure of 26,000 to 27,000 in 2022"

However...

Various population goals indicate roughly 25k to 30k "net inwards migration" this year too.

So while they're bound to underperform on construction, and overperform on their migration goals, in a time where accommodation being built is getting smaller and smaller in size (apartments overtaking houses)...

while not counting the REIT deals and government guaranteed rent-backs...

It's all just another MISTAKE, just another ACCIDENT, just another MIS-STEP. Don't fret, as our del boys tell us, "this time next year, we'll solve your housing problem, this time next year, swear to God, no taksie-backsies, pinky-swear!"

https://youtu.be/Nbc1Fs3Om-0

And let's not forget the windfall of the Ukraine crisis and millions displaced across europe, if you listen carefully enough you can practically hear the coin-counting, another juicy excuse to keep the gravy train rolling. Cynical, but cynicism well-deserved by our governance and buddies.

dxhound2005 · 01-03-2022 07:46PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118715674#Comment_118715674

Where did you observe that "fact"? The peak sale price was reached in 2007, and following a steep decline, we are only now getting back to that level. Hence the amount of negative equity that you must have observed for many years. A similar pattern is observable in the rental sector of housing costs.

https://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/prices/residentialpropertypriceindex/

sutrapall · 01-03-2022 07:55PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118715892#Comment_118715892

Oh, so after playing honest John by trying to misrepresent census figures in place of migration numbers, here you are to not-obfuscate by saying that house prices have been increasing for nigh on a decade out of control (but in reality, very much in control) in a different way to me, dressed up in **** to look like a point.

And what is your point, exactly? That you can re-word what I said? It's that pavlovian thing again, the frustrated subliminally implanted impetus to speak out against the truth without actually having anything to say. Speaking without point is akin to grunting.

dxhound2005 · 01-03-2022 08:10PM

I wish I could get some reward for my "Pavlovian" behaviour. Instead of your insults and invective.

landofthetree · 01-03-2022 08:16PM

Residential construction activity exceeded pre-pandemic levels last year, topping more than 30,000 units, according to a report from Deloitte.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/construction/residential-construction-activity-tops-pre-pandemic-levels-1.4814622

We are building too many houses. We will be back to ghost estates within 2 years.

Gant21 · 01-03-2022 08:17PM

The housing budget will be cut to fund Ukraine rebuild.

sutrapall · 01-03-2022 08:20PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118715994#Comment_118715994

Let us be honest here. You playing obvious, obvious games is the insult. Me rightfully pointing it out is not the insult.

As to your comment of rewards, it's funny, I was thinking along those lines generally. Why do people feel the need to maintain and defend a status quo that ultimately, if not directly, diminishes their lives?

If there was a voucher system, virtue bucks, maybe, that could be claimed and then used toward outrageous rent, outrageous mortgages, of themselves or friends, family, what have you...that would make sense. But virtue vouchers don't exist, so...something very strange afoot, methinks, when a people is compelled to make their lot worse!

snow_bunny · 01-03-2022 08:22PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118711011#Comment_118711011

My God, I enjoyed that thoroughly. Thanks.

The rage I feel (and there's hundreds of thousands more just like me) in the face of these complete fuckwits attributing this mess to incompetence or stupidity is off the charts. The dogs on the street have realised it's all engineered since day one. Noonan set that whole approach in action after the crash.

The actions regarding housing are there for all to see, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to conclude the contributng factors of this crisis were and remain on purpose. Actions being the key, not words.

The gaslighting from some vested interests is shameful. They'd piss down your back and tell you it's raining.

Why haven't the government had councils compulsory purchase land and started building themselves?

Why do they compete and outbid private buyers in this market?

Why haven't they placed even a temporary ban on non residents purchasing property here?

Why haven't they placed even a temporary ban on REITs buying up homes here?

Why do they continue to rent, at huge costs, through HAP when they will have no asset at the end of a multi decade lease?

Why haven't they greatly increased taxes on non primary residences?

Why haven't they greatly increased taxes on vacant buildings?

Why haven't they extended the RPZ countrywide?

There's no sense of urgency. They'll continue to tell us "it can't be solved overnight" while they do nothing of value.

They don't want to fix it.

dxhound2005 · 01-03-2022 08:23PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118716059#Comment_118716059

I was honest in everything I posted. Were you not being honest until now?

snow_bunny · 01-03-2022 08:47PM

https://m.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/theres-no-housing-bubble-michael-noonan-wants-prices-to-rise-30168455.html

2014 "FINANCE Minister Michael Noonan wants house prices to rise further and claims fears of another property bubble in Dublin are exaggerated."

https://m.independent.ie/breaking-news/irish-news/help-to-buy-scheme-will-drive-up-house-prices-noonan-warned-35122160.html

2016 "Michael Noonan's first time buyers scheme will simply drive prices even higher and lock greater numbers of people out of home ownership," he said.

The Society of Chartered Surveyors Ireland (SCSI) said the help-to-buy scheme would have very little impact on the housing crisis.

2022 and they're still at it even though its massively overcorrected:

https://www.newstalk.com/news/central-bank-warns-shared-equity-scheme-could-drive-up-house-prices-1281995

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/opinion-government-does-not-want-house-prices-to-fall-1.4734722?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fopinion%2Fopinion-government-does-not-want-house-prices-to-fall-1.4734722

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/27/large-investors-drive-up-house-prices-in-europes-cities-study-finds

snow_bunny · 01-03-2022 08:48PM

Just the most recent damning evidence, a letter from the UN:

https://www.mortgagebrokers.ie/housing/un-sent-irish-government-a-letter-on-housing-crisis/

"The Irish government received a letter in March from the UN rapporteur, Leilani Farha, stating that, “housing in Ireland is moderately unaffordable.” The UN was using this letter as a wakeup call to the Irish government and made some very serious allegations. One of the allegations that the letter made was, “house prices are now approaching levels last seen at the height of the property bubble.” This statement relives a terrible time in the history of Ireland. The Irish government responded by saying that average households only spend one-fifth of their income on housing costs but acknowledged some prominent issues that need to be improved.

A couple of the top problems stated in the letter related to land hoarding and equity landlords. First, land hoarding occurs when investors will purposefully sit on a property to increase demand and lower supply in the area before selling/renting. This is causing major problems for citizens that are struggling to keep up with the increasing prices. The other problem is landlords, “have openly discussed policies of introducing the highest rents possible in order to increase returns for shareholders.” The letter even specifically cited I-RES REIT for this issue because they are Ireland’s largest landlord.

The Irish government spent approximately three months before sending their 16-page response to the UN. The housing market is a sensitive subject in Ireland, and they wanted to make sure that a thorough and factual response was put in place. Initiatives that the government included in their response were help-to-buy scheme, vacant levy tax, and rent pressure zones. It was discerning for many people that the government failed to mention the record homeless numbers in Ireland and provided no solution for the 10,378 people and rising.

The UN addressed the rental market in Dublin by saying, “in Dublin a person with an average salary renting the average property now has to allocate 86.3% of their income on rent” and there is a “constant escalation of housing costs for tenants.” The Irish government contributed to this problem to the growing economy which is causing a strong demographic growth and driving up the rental market prices. The Irish government indicated that they have introduced rent pressure zones, which only allow for rental properties in that area to increase price by four percent annually among other restrictions.

Many countries are beginning to take notice into Ireland’s housing market, and it is time for the government to address the problems head on. The UN wrote a letter in the hopes that it would provide a more urgent approach to the issues from the government’s perspective."

We're only paying a fifth of our income on rents, plenty of room to go eh.

They government must be referencing some cottage in Leitrim there because as the UN pointed out to them, it's actually ~86% of average salary in Dublin or 43% between two.

sutrapall · 01-03-2022 09:29PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118716236#Comment_118716236

It's as straight as an arrow, all this housing malarkey! Not manufactured in the least.

In addition to the blatant shitery you demonstrate of them, and the practical condemnation of the United Nations, and this, and that, and that, and this...you'll still have those special select few attempting to stutter out excuses and cloak the corruption. And many times, no doubt, these people are being robbed too. Crazy stuff.

In addition to all the above is the 11th commandment territory of immigration. A governance that wrings it's hands at the housing crisis in despair, while it controls immigration and housing construction. Bare-faced cheek. And yet they've gotten away with it up to now. It's slow, but the truth is sure, it rises to the top. Look at the whoopsy daisy post I made above to get a glimpse at figures.

From a recent article on one of the crooked housing firms..."Several judges have been told that their main source of funding was through the Immigrant Investment Programme, under which non-EEA citizens who invest €1 million in Ireland can obtain residency."

Quelle surprise, one of them was caught! I'm sure they'll receive a light spanking now that they've bought citizenship in such a favourable way with the right fellas, wink wink, say no more! Oh and don't question where, and this is literal, 90%+ of those people come from. One could say it's not only a special visa, but a special, special visa!

Ne'er to be seen or allowed within 100 miles of each other are the scandalously separated faces of the government, namely that of it's population plans with migration and them blowing bubbles about solving the housing crisis. The propaganda arm of Righteous Telefis Eireann have their orders for programming, no fear of a slip up.

And the journalists who should be all over this like the plague, pulitzer-style hunting ground, where the hell are they? The integrity of a cardboard car for fear of breaking the 11th commandment.

It's a small bloody country at the end of the day, very small.

dxhound2005 · 01-03-2022 09:37PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118716236#Comment_118716236

That "most recent" damning evidence is from June 2019. Is that the most recent?

snow_bunny · 01-03-2022 09:41PM

It is, to me, the most damning yet impartial recent source yes. It's the UN not a random opinion piece in the Donegal Chronical.

I mean I could be here all night finding further evidence but I'll let you discover the wonders of Google yourself.

Ray Palmer · 01-03-2022 10:27PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118715674#Comment_118715674

So my explanation with proof is less than yours without proof and I am the idiot?

sutrapall · 01-03-2022 10:34PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118716601#Comment_118716601

Never mind responding to the likes of that tomfoolery, the transparency of a window in running interference against the truth. Maybe those virtue vouchers are real, after all!

Between the list of stuff both you and I have pointed out in short order...

Population increase plans for nowt stated reason...

Pathetic attempts at construction...

Wealthy Immigrant visas linked to housing...

Stated plans to increase the price of housing...

Nearly a decade of failure, a decade of no repercusions...

The United Nations chiming in...

REIT's...

Zero-tax incentives to buy swathes of housing...

Public housing opened to the world....

Government guaranteed rent-backs at sky high prices for decades....

Nama selling at cents on the euro...

Government money competing against first-time buyers...

Retro-fits of existing housing above half a million per home...

Exorbitant luxury builds given the go-ahead....

Exorbitant "international student housing" developments...

And on and on and on.

And out of all that, all of that, the one thing that has been allowed filter to the zeitgeist is the excuse of "duhhhhh, supply is the problem!"

Amazing. And as said above, in a veritable shooting gallery for journalists, there's barely a word to be seen?!

Then you have people popping along to say it's just the governance being stupid, excusing them of all responsibility, negligence and therefore providing free-reign to continue apace? After nearly a decade of it????

The shoe fits. The housing crisis has been manufactured by bullshit artists making money hand over fist, backed up by bullshit artists getting robbed hand over fist for virtue vouchers. What a mix, whew!

sutrapall · 01-03-2022 10:37PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118716933#Comment_118716933

Listen, you've already maxed out your virtue vouchers for the day, okay?

I doubt you even know what you're saying at this point, it's just gobbledygook. I've replied coherently several times to you and you just want to get some incomprehensible last word in. Okay, go for it, say something else and you win.

Housing Madness

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